Been Here For Years

00:00:04 Speaker 1: Comeback Stories is a production. I've Inflection Network and iHeartRadio. What's up, everybody. I'm Darren Waller. I'm tied end for the New York Giants. I'm also a husband, a brother, a son, an artist. Welcome back to Comeback Stories. And I'm Donnie Starkin's yoga, meditation teacher, personal development coach. And it's good to be back on the platform for Comeback Stories. We've got a special guest today, man who's had a comeback story, but we'll let him tell you that he's been here for years. We've got Michael Smith. Michael, welcome to the show man. It's good to be with you, fellows. It's really good to be with yo. Thank y'all for having me. I appreciate it. A big fan of what y'all are doing. But Darren, can I start with a question just curious have you gotten used to saying tight end for the New York Giants yet or is it still something you got to remind yourself? Is there still working out the kinks on it? Man? It's it's still like, wow, this is really true. And then it's like still putting on like blue shirts and in blue workout gear. I'm like this is taking a little bit of time. It's cool, but yeah, I still still got to get best to it a little bit. Before we get into your story, I know that you're somebody that has lived some of your career on big stages, in front of people, in front of all of America, and in certain points of your career. Could you speak to some of that pressure, because I know that I can relate and I can talk about the all the fans and the game and all the pressure that that brings from me to succeed and make money all those things. But what is it like from your perspective? That's a great question, you know. I would say if I could relate it to what you do, it's reps, you know, and the more reps you do, the more comfortable you get, the more you stop thinking, the more it slows down. I remember the first time I did television. I was in Boston, and because I didn't go to school for television, mind you, I haven't went to school to be a front journalist. A matter of fact, I looked down my nose at television people because I was like, oh, you are real journalists, you know, you just you your makeup and your cameras and you know you don't. You're telling the real stories. A real, real journalism is written word. I was one of those guys, even as a young kid. And so I was at the Boston Globe and I would have been, you know, about twenty two years old or something like that, maybe even younger. And I went on a local television show and I remember, if you're shaking, you know, like I mean, just like bouncing my leg, and I just was so nervous. I don't even remember if I can get a sentence out cleanly and you know, fast forward. And thankfully people didn't give up on me. And after doing thousands of hours of it, it just became second nature. And the best advice I got along the way was just to get better at being myself. And so I stopped magnifying mistakes. I stopped worrying about, honestly, what people thought. I never think about the people on the other side of the red lights. So I imagine you might block out the people in the stands and just you know, focus on the person in front of you. I focused on the person next to me. I focus on the story I want to tell, I focus on the point I want to make and it went from a nervous energy to an exciting energy. And I get a rush when a red light comes on. So I don't think of it as pressure as much as it is a privilege. And it became fun over the years just to connect with people, even if I couldn't see them or I didn't know them, I'm connecting with people through that camera lens and on the other side of the red light, it's beautiful. Man. Well, you started your career as a sports writer, right and then fifteen years with the ESPN and a variety of roles reporter, host, commentator, anchor on Sports Center. But now you kind of are wearing multiple HAPs across the industry of peacocks shows with my main man, Michael Smith and brother from another with NFL Insider on Amazon on the Thursday Night show. And you're a media entrepreneur. You're the reason why we're here sitting together as the leader of this company. So but most importantly your husband of Sarah and a father of three. So I wanted to give you a little bit of a per intro. But that being yeah, with that being said, maybe you can take us back. Darren and I always dive deep and we go right into the story, and we would just like to know some contexts and maybe tell us what it was like growing up for you. Sure, I grew up in New Orleans. I'm the oldest of two. You know. My mom and my dad raised me until they got divorced about when I was about ten, and my stepdad came into our lives and loved us like we were his own. I am the grandson of a Baptist pastor, so I'm a preachers grandkid served on the usher board. So one of the reasons I'm long when it is I got it. It It runs in my family. You know, people say I am a bit of a preacher on television. I got it. I got it honestly, if you will. Grew up in New Orleans and grew up around a lot of love, man, you know, And when I was growing out in New Orleans, was was a rough place. You know, probably had the highest murder rate per capital in the United States at the time. But I was I was shielded from a lot of that. To be out with you, you know, I was aware of it. But you know, I didn't want for anything growing up. I weren't rich, but you know, my mom did what she had to do to take care of us. My stepdad took care of us. I had a relationship with continue relationship with my father, had a lot of role models. Went to McDonald thirty five, the first all black high school in New Orleans, a nationally recognized Blue Ribbon school, so I had a great education. I went to Loyola University in New Orleans, so I stayed close to home and close to my family until I graduated, and I moved to Boston right out of college to work for the Boston Globe. But yeah, I would say, just my upbringing. Man, It's just I had so many people, you know, I had a village, really simple in playing, whether it's my my church family, my immediate family, my extended family, the community. I just had a lot of a lot of people behind me pushing me towards success. And I'm really really grateful for it. I got nothing but fond memories. You know, as a father, I often say, you know, our our job is at our children to adulthood with as few scars as possible, physical and emotional and mental. I know that I am so blessed and so fortunate to be able to say that I didn't carry any trauma throughout my childhood and into adulthood, and I think it's it's just wanted to. It's something I did not have to overcome quite honestly, when it came to being a father and a husband, you know, and a citizen myself. And so I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for everybody that poured into me as a kid. And I wouldn't be where I am without my family and like I said, without my community and went up at village. Yeah, it sounds like you had a lot of a lot of support and a lot of love and maybe not a lot of trauma. But can you go back and can you remember an early memory of struggle or pain or anything that you saw in the world that kind of impacted you, you know, I would I would say initially, you know, my parents separated quite a bit. They were kind of they were always married, but on and off, you know what I mean, And so we moved around a lot. My dad was kind of in and out of I wouldn't see in and out of a picture because he was always you know, we're always connected and close. He was always there. But in terms of like the new Clear family and in the household kind of in and out, as I recall, and then they got divorced a little bit after a little left that term ten. Initially that was tough, But like I said, I give a lot of credit to my stepdad, you know, for coming in and loving two boys that weren't his as if they were his. So that that was that could have been challenging. And and maybe it is in ways that I had an unpacked yet but you know, well my grandfather was like a father to me. My uncle was like a father to me, you know, uncles for that matter, you know, And I was all and again my stepdad stepped up. And then there's teachers who looked after me. So for some children, that might have been traumatic. And and we haven't really talked about it, but I think it affected my younger brother. They'd be more than it affected me, at least on this on a level that I'm aware enough. Again, there may be some stuff beneath the surface that I just haven't gotten to. So fat they'll say it didn't affect me. I guess it says something that was the first thing I referenced. Right beyond that, yeah, I would I would say I would say there was enough of a cushion and enough of a cocoon and enough arms being you know, putting around me to where I wouldn't say that I missed. And again my dad wasn't around. He moved away and lived in Miami. I lived in New Orleans. But it wasn't like he wasn't there when, you know, when I told my acl my senior high school playing football, he was at that game and he was there, you know, So you know, I don't want to paint the picture like, you know, like I was abandoned. No, far from it. But that was an adjustment and a challenge more than it was I would say a struggle. But if I had to point to probably the most traumatic thing as relates to my family, I was older, and I had grown up, and I you know, moved to Boston and just started my family. But obviously a Hurricane Katrina was very difficult for my family. They had to evacuate to Boston and live with me and my wife. My parents lost everything, my my my grandparents or my grandmother. My grandfather had passed by then, my grand mother lost everything. You know, a displacement that they're that trauma is real and it's Still it's generational, and I still don't know it that we've properly identified how how much that reverberates or you know, from the generations of people who experienced Katrina as adults, as kids, and even their kids. I don't know that we can properly quantify that, but yeah, I would I would say I would say that's split between between my parents is the probably the earliest memory beyond that the eighteen years I spent under my my mom's roof. You know, it wasn't always you know, peaches and cream, you know what I'm saying. You know, I got into it my stepdad. I was a hard head, you know, I wasn't you know, but I didn't get any trouble. I didn't run with the wrong crowd. And I think part of that too was just like a being a preacher's kid. And my my grandfather, you know, was it was kind of a big deal in New Orleans, you know what I mean. You know, his church was the first one broadcast over the radio. So it's like people kind of knew where I was and they knew where I was going. And so I lived in a pretty decent part of town. Even the opportunities too, straight were met with. Hey, man, you know you were a straight A student. You know this, this this ain't for you. You You on a path. Let's keep you on a path. You know what I'm saying. I can relate a lot to what you said about My parents divorced when I was seven, and I would always say this was up until about two years ago, and I'm forty five years old now, but I would always say, my parents made the best out of the what could have been a bad situation. They you know, they got divorced when I was seven or eight. They've always been cordial. They really did. From my perspective, seemed like they were making it about the kids. But it wasn't until a couple of years ago that I, with some outside help and therapy, that I identified that I'm the youngest of four and ultimately went to live with my dad. I would see my mom a couple of times a week, but the there's like legit trauma there that I never even realized, because it's like, now I'm separated from my mom and I'm the youngest of four, and I'm a mama's boy, and there was there was a lot there and I never really realized it, and you know, with that new awareness, it was just like, actually, that probably did have an impact on me. So yeah, I can relate a lot to what you're sharing. And it was like I just assumed that this was it was kind of normal. We just adapted. Michael, you've discussing your pain with as far as your parents separation. I want to know what role did your passion for storytelling play in the process. Was that a way for you to escape that or was it a way to find joy in that process? Like take me through your journey as developing your passion at the same time of dealing with this pain. Yeah, I would say, you know, I don't. I didn't grow up. I wasn't a journey I didn't I didn't write story. I wasn't somebody who kept a journal. I always loved movies, always loved movies, and my uncle and I and my grandfather and I and even my grandmother as well bonded over movies. We watched the same movies over all the time, over and over again. And because again I grew up the grandson of a Baptist pastor and first a lady, it was only certain types of movies we could watch for my grandparents house. You know what I'm saying. You know, I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't throw all you know, you know Eddie Murphy Rawl or something like that at my grandparents house. But you know, love always loved movies as much as as as I love sports. My grandfather and I would have a race to the newspaper to uh get the sports section to read about the Saints and and and the dis fascist from lacrosse Wisconsin and training camp, and looking back, that's the origin of my obsession with team building, with reporting with detail and uh and I just read. I read the sports section in particular cover to cover, and in terms of writing. I guess that really I got pushed into that. More about my high school teachers who thought I had a gift for it. I didn't. I didn't. I did not grow up with a dream of being a sports writer, which I ended up being right out of college or during college. But what's interesting, it's it's somehow you manifest stuff and don't even know it. So I was the salutatory in my high school graduating class ninety seven, the local newspaper at the times, picking you, which I would go on to work at the Times picking you. They did like a little Q and A with me, and they asked me what my dream job was, and would you believe at seventeen years old, I said, as forts center riker. I think it was because I grew up watching like a Stewart Scott. It was inspired by that, and like everybody else was obsessed with, you know, ESPN, and I didn't pursue broadcasting. I ended up, you know, like I said, during a high school internship at the Times, picking you, uh, during a college internship at the Times picking un in New Orleans, and then twice at the Boston Globe for two summers. And when I got out of college, I was a you know, obviously went back to the Boston Globe to work full time. And even that first internship at the Time speaking you, it only came about because I was like, well, do I go to summer school? Do I get a summer job? And they called me and I was like, hey, we've never had a sports intern. Would you like to be out of sports intern? It was like, sure, you mean I get paid right about sports? Sign me up. And honestly that's where that's where I started. It started from again, somebody looking out from me and handing me an opportunity, and I just took it in a rond with it. It looks like from you had a pretty good job agatting with the Boston Globe, like right out of college. Look like you had a lot of ambition to pursue this, and it looked like it served you in a way. But ultimately with we'll get into how your story ends up playing out. Do you ever feel like your ambition was like hindering you in a way or hindering maybe your perspective potentially at any point in your journey? Oh god, yes, oh god, we could be. We could we just been all day just on that, you know, like I think, and because my career was on such a fast track. So like just a little quick recap. It's like, so I interned at the time of Speaking Union after my freshman year of college. Then I interned at the Boston Globe after my sophomore in junior years. And they had never been in a two time Boston Globe intern, let alone sports intern. And at the time, the Boston Globe was the premier or pre eminent sports section in the country. Like talking about Super Team dream team Boston Globe sports staff, right, So then they say come back after college. So I'm twenty one years old at the Boston Globe. They knew how much I love covering pro football, so I'm helping out, not the main beat writer, but the backup beat right on the Patriots beat. And if you do the math, that's the that's the two thousand and one season, two thousand and two Super Bowl. So I'm back in New Orleans less than a year after graduating high school covering the Super Bowl for the Boston Globe. So you wanna talk about perspective, I had none, Okay? And then two years later they start a TV show where they're gonna put cameras in an inside of a newsroom and it's gonna be sports writers around the country. Twenty years later, that TV show is still on television. That's around the Horn. So I'm twenty three, twenty four years old on national freaking television on ESPN. Okay, And then at twenty four years old, ESPN is like, hey, why don't you come work for us full time? So the very thing that people spend their whole lives trying to achieve in the place they spend their whole careers trying to get to I was there three years out of college. I had a cup of coffee at the Boston Globe, far I'm at ESPN, and I'm National Television, and so I and so what I The only regret I have there is that I never appreciated the journey because I was always so fixated on what was next and more and and the rat race, and I never appreciated how far I come and how quickly I come that far. And I don't think I enjoyed it as much, to be honest with you, I don't think I enjoyed what I was doing. And it took a while for me to get to a place of enjoying what I was doing. And by wild, I mean only really the last few years for me to really appreciate what I did, what I had the opportunity to do, what I achieved, and how I achieved it. But man, I mean, I just it's almost like a rookie that just kind of like dominates right out to gave me like, oh, this is easy, or you know, like Dan Marino back in the day going to the Super Bowl his second year, like oh, I'm gonna be here all the time it was it was kind of like that. For me, It's like, oh, this is what it's supposed to be. And so I was completely a devoted perspective. Yes, so what you're saying is it almost is like you had to have it taken from you to really appreciate it. That's exactly right. Boy, you're good at this. Yes, you were seeing right through me. Man, Yes, that's exactly right. I had to I had to experience. So that's another thing, man, Like I was, I did not know what professional adversity was. Most people, you know, have to grind and they have to start off in like a small market. And you know, I made more money my first job out of college than my parents made in any year or years of combined my entire life, like right out of college, you know, and then I go to ESPN and I made X times that. You know what I'm saying. It's like, so I just never experienced the rough side of the mountain that so many people have to experience in this business out of college, whether it's freelancing or whether it's working at a small market or you know, I was just it all came so quickly and so easily. It wasn't until you know, my late thirties that I actually that that linear or that that accelerated path that meteoric rise was interrupted. And so that was challenging to, like I said, to have it taken away from me. And yes, the blessing in the struggle was being able to appreciate what I've done, what I'd accomplished, what I'd experienced, what I've been blessed with and gifted with, but also honestly, you know, look at myself in a different way. And and that that was that was helpful and I needed that. I needed that struggle to h to better appreciate my blessings. I counted my blessings more deliberately when it got hard, and and that and that was I appreciate that because I don't I think maybe I would have just gone on taking it all for granted and thinking that it was normal. You know, It's like you don't know what you have until it's until it's gone. And space, I always like to say space space creates appreciation. And I've heard you say early on that you were allowing that sudition. Yeah, I mean you, because see I was so I'm you know, I'm also hit the sidebar real quick. No, I was trying to thought. My stepdad is an accomplished singer, and my parents have an R and B band down in Lawles, right, so we had all I grew up around a musical family like Vinyl everywhere, band, rehearsal, living room. And so you say it's basically creates appreciation. My mind went to Jeffrey Osborne and LTD. Concentrate on you. It takes separation to bring appreciation. So you preach it right there. That's how I used that line all the time. Oh I love it. And but you had said early on, I've heard you say that you let your ambition get in the way of your appreciation. And that's so early or so often early in your career. It was seeking external validation, which of course if you're in your twenty twenty two, twenty three years old. It brought me back to where I was at at that age and just so concerned with what other people thought about me, the external other people's opinions, because I had no tools. I'm still a young kid, you know. Even just performance face sports, everything is statistics. If you you got to be good enough to make the team and then to make the team you gotta. It was all about other people's opinions, and so it would make sense that you were so so much seeking for that external validation because you're just a kid still thrust into that world. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if it was as much seeking external validation, because I mean, I think it might have. Actually, honestly, Donnie might have been the opposite extreme, which is like you couldn't tell me shit, It's like you could. I mean, I'm twenty three, twenty four years old at ESPN on national television with people twice my age, if now more holding my own. I thought I had it all figured out. I thought I had all the answers, and that lack of perspective manifested itself and being impatient, you know what I mean, Like, you know, I wanted things that frankly I was not ready for. You know, I didn't trust the process. You know. I can only imagine how people listen, no matter how much of a wonder couldn't I was, no matter how much of a prodigy I was. I can only imagine how people who had grinded and paid their dues and experienced things and seeing things must have looked at this kid, you know who. And it's not that I lacked humility. I think I've always carried myself with the level of humility. But you know, I just I didn't understand what it meant to just kind of like wait my turn and how everything came would come and do time and accordance with God's plan. It's like I wanted it. I wanted at all. I wanted it now, you know what I mean. If I didn't get it, now, I'm like, well, why am I not getting now? You know, I'm now It's not it's maybe this is somewhat external validation. Maybe maybe it's a very close relative of external validation, but it's like comparing myself to other people or why is he doing that and I'm not, you know, but why is he getting that and I'm not? You know, I'm I'm better than him and I should be here and I should be doing this and I should have that, and you know, it's like that type of stuff, that comparison game. And by the way, this is pre social media, you know, because it only amplified with social media. The highlight film that everybody is paying attention to. Yeah, I think a lot of that robbed me of that perspective that we alluded to earlier. When you talk about the level of confidence and ego that you have of like I'm him, like I'm here, I feel like for me in my experience, when moments that come that may threaten that thought I have about myself, it's easy for me to slip into self doubt. Do you feel like you felt that way when it seemed like the career that you built was now uncertain? Yes? And that always confused me. Maybe I'll can help me with that, because you know, there was a lot there were times despite my confidence and bravado and how self assured I was, it was also some impost syndrome. And I'm not sure how those two things can co exist. I'm not sophisticated enough to break down how those can co exist, because I always thought that am I gonna get exposed? And then when I would? You know, and when I say I did not experience real professional adversity back in those days, and I guess we're at the time period where I'm in my early twenties and I'm on the fast track and mid twenties or whatever. Back in those days, I thought I was experienced in adversity but didn't really know what adversity was in hindsight, right, you know, there was a lot of uh, well, you know, am I as good as I think I am? And and okay, down there there's the external validation, right, so I was like, am I am I? Really? Am I? Really? Him? Am I fooling myself? You know? Maybe I'm Maybe I'm not all that and a bag of chips, you know, and maybe this is all there is for me, and maybe what I want, what I'm dreaming of, will never come. Maybe it's not for me. And then there was also the resentment, so that's the internal part. Then there's the well, they don't appreciate me, you know, they don't they they don't they don't see the start that I am. They don't you know, I'm not getting what I deserved. You know, they're sleeping on your board all that type of stuff. So it's it kind of vascillated between uh, some self doubt and then some resentment and frustration and professional frustration about feeling like I wasn't getting you know, what I wanted, you know, or what I deserved better, better what I deserved when I should have gotten it, Darren, can you relate to that imposter syndrome? I know we've talked about it a bunch. I know I have it, but I'd love to hear your thoughts and how you work through that on the stage that you have. Oh yeah, I got I have two. I have two things for you. One I don't know if I've shared either one of these, but one is twenty twenty, we played the New York Jets, which is actually the day before, or was the day we recorded the very first episode of Comeback Stories. I had to plug that in there. But the Jets game, I had two hundred yards receiving that game, and very easily could have been more if there were a couple of little little things that I could have done differently. But the next practice we have on Wednesday, I think I'd drop a pass like in routes on air, and I'm like, I don't even know why I'm building a house out here. They're gonna ship me out of this place. Like that's how quick my mind can shift two hundred yards. I think there's only been four tight ends in the history of the NFL that I've ever done what I've just done. And I come and I meet a moment of not even real adversity, just a human experience in this game that I play, and I'm so quick to go to the complete other end of the spectrum. And my sponsor paints a picture that's so vivid. If you look at a spectrum right, and there's a one and a ten. A ten is you're being an egomaniac, and a one would be you're so anti ego that you don't even really have true humility or affirm your own strengths. And my sponsors like, brother, we gotta get you to a five, Like meditate on that, like what does a five look like? What does a balance look like? To where you can show up and be confident in what you bring to the table without having to flex it on everybody else or be seen for it, but really to truly just embody your truest energy and your truest self and show up in that manner. And it's still an ongoing practice for me. I'm sure it's an ongoing practice for all of us. It's something that we have to keep in the forefront of our mind. And Michael, I feel like you're starting and really starting to get that because you've experienced what people would see as shiny and sexy success being on the six pm Sports Center slot, But that wasn't ultimately fulfilling for you. But now being able to be in a position where telling your own stories and doing what you want to do is that much more fulfilling. Like, how does one arrive to that point? How did I arrive to that point? One of the things I like about this show, you know, as a storyteller, it certainly resonates with me, is how you guys talk about the story. You'll tell it yourselves, sor right. I'll try to. It's very very complicated, literally, books have been written about it, but I'll try to summarize the inflection point, you know, which is why I named my company Inflection Point Entertainment. I want to follow it back in twenty twenty, because that's when the story gets good. Sometimes I just don't know it. I get my own show back in twenty eleven, I would have been my mathis right, that's what thirty two. It becomes a hit. Around twenty fourteen, it really starts to take off. Twenty seventeen, I get that job that I manifested as a teenager. I had no idea what I was saying as a sports center ancor on a six PM sports center. In short, it was a It was a disaster for a number of reasons, which we can get into, or we could say it for another time, because y'all gonna got so much chime. But you know, I was in professional limbo from I would say twenty eighteen. March Night twenty eighteen was my last sports center March ninth, twenty eighteen to September of twenty nineteen. It's about eighteen months I was in professional limbo, just kind of off the grid. I was off the grid, but I was in my own head quite a bit, and it took me a while and a couple of startups to get to a point where I started to tell myself the story in which that chapter, that ESPN chapter or chapters were necessary, and be grateful for those chapters because, like with every story, those chapters proceeded and set up and laid the foundation for what was to come. And once I could get past my bitterness and resentment that I felt about how when I think, if I may say so, it was a damn good fifteen year run how it ended, I was able to appreciate it and count it all joy and and and celebrate it and not be ashamed of anything. And even the idea I was thinking about this, you know what I was gonna talk to you guys, the idea of a comeback. Right. When I think of comebacks, I think of, well, I'm trailing or I'm losing, or I'm behind. But according to whose scoreboard? Right, It's like, you know, I was winning the whole time. But my perspective was I had suffered a loss or a setback. I wasn't. It wasn't a setback. It was just the end of one chapter at the beginning of another one, and I was just moving in a different direction, but still moving forward. Nonetheless, I had to I had to, like you know, rip, which means to change your mind. I had to. I had to change my mind in my paradigm from man, I'm holding the l two Okay, I'm actually being pushed and moved into more of my purpose. I was using this comparison to somebody earlier. It's kind of like it's kind of like renting a house versus buying it, you know, like owning a house is a pain in the ass, you know, But I wouldn't rent. I prefer to own my own home. And now I'm owning my career in a way that I didn't. No matter how much I was getting paid, no matter how it recognizable I was, how successful I was, I didn't own those ideas and intellectual property. I didn't own that platform. And I learned that the hard way, right. I now can tell my own stories and empower other people to tell their stories and to own their stories and to own their narratives. And that started with me owning, like as you guys often say, owning my own narrative and not letting other people write my story for me, Like what kind not only what kind of story I tell myself, but what kind of story am I writing for myself? And what is my next chapter? Who are the characters that need to be written out of my story? Who are the people that I want to introduce into my story? Where do I want to take my story? Like I'm in complete control of how I contextualize that. And it just took me a while a lot of dark days, a lot of sleepless nights, a lot of anxiety to work through that, to be comfortable with where I was and where I was going to answer a question like that's how I got to a point where I'm fulfilled in what I'm doing because my next chapter is challenging in a way that my last one wasn't you know, And even if I don't, you know, succeed in the same ways, successes look different. And so now I'm keeping my own score and so my wins are are up to me to determine what are my wins or if I view something as a loss. And that was the shift for me, is to not look at the way things ended at ESPN as a law as a setback from which I had to come back from, Like no, it was just a setup for what was next. Ownership that we were just talking about this on a previous conversation Darren and I were having where my life completely changed when I started to take ownership and started blaming stop blaming everybody else for for my problems. And you also mentioned success, and I think it's so important to come up with our own definition of success because the hook and I think why a lot of people are unhappy is because they're basing their success on somebody else's definition, which is why it's so important to look at our values and come up with our own definition of success. With that gap and not working, it was too I think you said twenty eighteen to twenty nineteen. Yeah, now I was still with I was still with ESPN. This is how messed up I was and how hard it was. It's like I was still getting paid a lot of money to not work. But that was such a mind job because that you know, I never did it for the money, and my routine was so interrupted. And I can unpack that a little bit more later. But I was still with the ESPN, but was unable to appreciate the blessing that that that stretch was for all the anxiety about what was next and all the resentment about what had just happened. But go ahead, Donnie, Sorry, I just wanted to clarify I was. I was still there, but just not as prominent. Yeah, I was just gonna say, what was with all of that happening? Did you have a lowest point? I mean, Darren and I have lowest points. There were the result of an addiction, which was which much of it was self inflicted. But can you take us to maybe your lowest point? Man? Okay? And a reason I struggle to pick one hour is because it was such a stretch, like I don't know, I don't know that there was one ground zero or you know, I'd have to think about it. I just know that I was I was a shell of myself. I would say I was just in a fog for a long time, and I couldn't I felt like a prisoner. I think somebody wrote about it and said, you know, these goal plated handcuffs that I had, I was making a ship ton of money to do nothing, and I, okay, this isn't a point, donnie, but this is a I guess this is an example. I stopped watching sports altogether because I couldn't watch sports because for fifteen for almost twenty years, I had consumed sports through the prism of somebody who was a part of that machine as far as well, I'm watching this game, and I'm formulating opinions and thoughts and crystallizing my perspective of my commentary that I'm going to now present to the masses tomorrow. I gotta shoulder do. I got a job to do, and so I had to go to restaurants, for example, and make sure that my back was to the television because I couldn't watch ESPN because it was triggering, you know, when I was at home. You know, my favorite event as the NFL A Draft. It's my favorite sporting event, which speaks to the nerd that I am. And I couldn't watch the NFL Draft because all I have to think about was the years that I was a part of the NFL draft coverage. I couldn't watch, you know, any of the talk shows because all I would think about was I should still be doing that. I should still I should still be I should still be a part of that. All it did would remind me of of open those old wounds and remind me of that that trauma. You know. I had to distance myself from sports for a long time until I was pulled back in it in twenty twenty, you know, and my son actually brought me back into it, to be honest, which it because I realized that I was robbing him of some experiences with his father. And I got back into sports when I started to kind of view it through his eyes and the innocence of his eyes, and you know, took into some games and watched some games with him as he grolder and he's fifteen now, but he was just starting to really get into it when I was stop being selfish about it and saying, all right, I don't want to watch it because it was hurting me. But the Jordan, he was getting out of it and bonding that we were able to experience that also brought me back into sports. But I would say, you know, and if a moment comes to me, I'll share it. Like you know, I can't remember like one out of the Mini Sleepless Nights. I can't remember one, you know, out of the Mini. It was a time when I just I couldn't go a day without going down that hole, that rabbit hole. I couldn't, you know. And and mind you, I still live in Connecticut. I'm still a stone's throw away from ESPN. And somebody told me a long time ago, you can't kill where you got sick. And so I would drive past that place and I would have to almost like cut off my peripheral vision so that I did look in that direction. Like it was hard, difficult, shit, like I was like my like my head is just was just like I had so many thoughts and I kept flashing back to moments and what could I have done differently? And was it? Was it really my fault, and you know, how could this have happened to me? And like younger Matter movie killed Bill Volume two when the Bride finally meets Bill at the end and she said, you know, could you do that? Yes? But I never thought she could do that to me. Somewhere along the line, I got it twisted that I would never be shown a double, you know. And I don't know if it's because I thought I was so good or because I had such a long tenure, but it was like I was completely mind fuck you know, for the longest stretch of time. It's really I guess time is the point, like time heals all wounds. And you know, once I started to kind of like just really move forward and really embrace where I was and as opposed to looking back on where I had come from and where I thought I should still be. Once that unlocked, that that changed everything for me. And I'll tell you what, I don't miss it at all, you know, not a I never sit around and say, oh I wish I was still there. Never I wouldn't. I'm glad. And the funny thing is, for a long time, I said, this goes back to ego. For a long time, I said, oh, I want to spend fifteen years at ESPN and lead when I was when I'm forty years old. I spent fifteen years at ESPN and left when I was forty years old. It was the how that I left that messed me up. I wanted to be the one to break up with down. I wanted to be the one to say, you know what, it's been real, I'm wanting to begger and better. I had no idea that I was gonna take a buyout and kind of lead with a whimper. You know. I thought I'd get a cake and ship and a special and a montage of all my greatest moments, you know what I mean, Like nah, player, that ain't hide ends for all of us. Everybody cared. Ride off into the sunset. But I remember the sunshine and real bright the day I decided I'm not just gonna sit here in Limbo, I'm going to leave. And I drove off, and I remember the weather. The birds were singing, the weather was beautiful, and I handed my ID badge into the security guard for the last time, and I felt so free for a moment. I still had some trauma to work through after that, but I felt free for that moment, and now I just feel like I'm supposed to be here, and I was supposed to go through all that for a reason to be here with y'all. Right now. Man, oh man, wow, I got that marinate for a second. I hope I'm not rambling too much. Man, it's just, you know, y'all, just y'all ask you a great question. No, No, it's so, It's just it's just so. It's just so powerful, you know. Like I, Man, I have a goal plated handcuffs experience myself getting to the NFL, drafted with the Baltimore Ravens. Every single goal that could be on a sheet of paper I've checked off, and I've never never been more miserable making great money. You know, everybody knows who I am. Everybody from my hometown holds me in a certain puts me on a pedestal because of what I've done. And I was like, this is all I've ever wanted, and it ends up being the most painful internally, to the point to the point where I wanted to self sabotage it and not wanted to succeeded in self sabotaging it because not only was I struggling with do I even deserve this? But this is it was so much pain of like this is what I've been searching for all my life and this is all that it was to stomach. That was a lot. And when I got banned from the league for a year and go to rehab, come back, get a job working at Sprouts, like there's no intention on me ever returning to football like I was. I was like you, like, I'm not trying to watch football games. I'm not trying to go to my college or my high school and be like, this is a guy that made it to I wanted nothing to do with any of that, but it was literally the authentic joy in the relationship with the guy that I was training with. His name is Quay Mac and getting out there back on the field and just filling the grass underneath my feet, you know, running through the same drills and just being immersed in the moment of just improving my craft. We were sharing the field with a high school team seven on seventeen and let us get like the twenty yards of the end zone and we just running drills and it's just like getting an appreciation for just the work of what I'm doing, not necessarily where I'm going and how it looks, or whether I'm in front of a lot of people or I'm in the spotlight, but just like, do I feel good about what I'm doing right here, right now? In days stacked of that allow me to not only return to the game, but return to the game with a purpose. I'm not just here to entertain you. I'm here to have a platform and to attract attention to me somebody that's been broken, somebody that's been hurting, somebody that's done the worldly success thing and achieved everything but felt meeting thisss on the inside, Like I need to get these words out of me. I need to get this story out of me, because somebody needs to hear this because we're believing lies. We're believing lies about ourselves and the narratives we tell ourselves and just overall what we think life should be and what a success is. And if I think about it, if only I didn't have to go through it, But now I'm like, shame on me for thinking if I didn't have to go through it, because going through it, let's turned into the most beautiful perspective shifter for me, and I know, Donnie feels the same way, like if somebody's writing their story right now and you listen to this, like, it's not gonna come free of pain, it's not gonna come free of disappointment, it's not gonna come free of heartbreak at times, but it's gonna get better. And it sounds cliche and it's hard to believe in the moment because I look at people like, yeah, whatever when they tell me that. But it became true for me, and it's still true for me to this day. Your test was a testimony, man, That's that's beautiful. Did you suffer from embarrassment because I know, I know I struggled with embarrassment when I was going through it because even though were the things that I could have done differently or ways I could approach approach my situation differently, yes, you know, do I have some regrets about things that I which would have gone differently, Yes, But a lot of things were a lot of the way that everything played out. It's not that I'm pointing a finger. I'm saying it was things beyond my control, you know what'derstand? I'm saying like it's just that that had nothing to do with me, which is also part of egos, like realizing that it's not really about shoot. But I when when I was kind of you know, for lack of better phase put in a corner some would say, made an example of which is a whole other conversation. I thought it was a referendum or an indictment on my ability or lack thereof. Well, I must not be the ship if they could just like kick me to the curve like this. You know, this must be because I'm not that good, because they wouldn't do that to X, Y or Z. And then going back to like I said earlier, like coming back austrailing or losing according to who's scoreboard, it's like the outside world. Definitely let me know that it was that I took an l that I that I had fallen off, you know that you know, was writing my story for me, and this was the end, you know it took. And then one of the best things somebody said to me, my friend Jane McManus at the time, she was in charge of the communication. She's a you know, very successful sportswriter. At the time. She's at Seaton Hall now I believe, but at the time she was at Maris College and she had me teach the interview in class for like half a semester. But I remember laying on literally laying on her couch and kind of just like pouring my heart out to her, and she said, your problem is you are looking at yourself through their eyes as they get through ESPN's eyes. And that convicted me and I realized that, you know, it had nothing to do with what I was or who I wasn't what I could do or what I couldn't do. It was it was it was bigger than me. And once I got over like that feeling of shame, I was able to receive a lot of the flowers that people have for me, and, like you said, start to be that inspiration that people need for me to be and lean into that more again, you know, keeping with the scoreboard things like yeah, no, it's it's like the game ain't over. Maybe I am trailing, either in my own mind or in the from the world's perspective, you know, according to whatever scoreboard. You know, but I'm still in the game. You know, I'm still in the game. I'm still in the fighting. You know, it's still time on the clock. I don't know how much time. But if I'm getting up every day, it's still time on the clock for me to do something with. It's still plays to be made, you know. And so now the fulfillment comes from every every meeting, every email, you know. And I also, man, like, I love how you talked about that process you felt. It's not like you fell in love with the process of just getting better every day. You know. It wasn't the fame. It wasn't the lights, it wasn't the money, it wasn't the glory. It was just the love of the game, right, the adoration outside adoration, like Donnie talked about earlier, that external validation wasn't doing it for you. That wasn't feeling you. You had to find your own feel like. And for me being on camera, being on television, like and I never got caught up and people recognizing me. I never got caught up with what people said or because I always know it could work, it could work both ways. But for me now going back to that question of how I was fulfilling now, it's like, man, every email, every meeting, every possibility of every project, every discussion, every relationship, all that stuff is like, I love it. I love it. I love the process of building something, of building something that I can call my own, of empowering other people to tell their stories, of amplifying marginalized voices, of giving people the same shot that I needed once upon a time to get where I wanted to go. Like, I'm in such a better place than our otherwise would have I guess, And the story is still not over. The comeback quote unquote I put it in an air quotes is still in process, in progress. I beg your pardon. It's still a process. I'm still a work in progress. A bad day for the ego is a good day for the soul. And I think that process you're in now it's kind of led you to inflection points. So can you tell us a little bit about where you're at now? And I'm kind of curious where you came up with that name. So this would have been two and seventeen. I was fortunate enough, blessed enough to be admitted to the twenty first class of the Aspen Institute's Henry Crown Fellowship. One of the I guess the missions of the fellowship is to find professional who are at inflection points in their lives and careers and find people who are using their resources and their relationships to help close the gap between the world's problems and solutions. You can tell I've said that a few times because I kind of got it, memorized it, and so as y'all know, that phrase inflection point became really popular during the twenty twenty presidential election, but you know I had it first because I, you know, name my company Inflection Point Entertainment. Not only was I inspired to name my company Inflection Point Entertainment based off of me being at a personal inflection point, which nobody puts a shelf life on that inflection point. You know, I was on it, you know, personal and professionally, but professionally from like twenty eighteen to I don't know, I'm still in it in many respects, right you said You've said previously that the uncomfortable part is when the story gets good. That's another way of talking about the inflection point, like that point of change, when things change or in some cases when shit is the fan, is when the story really gets good. And so I'm drawing I like to start stories there. I'm drawn to stories of inflection points within individuals, within industries, within institutions, and so that that was the inspiration for the name of the company. Yeah, you're You're an amazing storyteller. There's no doubt about that. With you know, everything that you've experienced, just like us, has led us to this beautiful moment of connection and having meaningful conversations and then creating a platform that's allowing Darren and I not only to share our stories, but for other people to share their stories and you to share your story. It's a beautiful moment that we're at. Can you talk a little bit about some of the projects other than ours that you've undertaken. Yeah, Inflection Point Entertainment. We are we like to call ourselves genre and platform agnostic, which is another way of saying we will tell cool stories no matter the platform, no matter of subject matter. In addition to the Inflection Network the Inflection Podcast Network, we have several your films in development. We have scripted series of development documentaries and development and like we just like to tell cool stories and like we stay amongst ourselves. We'd like to you know, do dope shit with cool people and you guys spit the bill, you know what I mean. And so and more than anything is like empower and amplify and elevate, enlighten, and entertain. Those are some of our north stars when it comes to the content that we're developing in the stories that were the stories that we're tell them. Man, I speak for so many people that are listening today when I say that we appreciate the way that you responded when shit hit the fan and the way that you're continuing to respond and write your story. It's been it's just been incredible to have this conversation with you. Man, I wouldn't ask you. If there's somebody who's been listening, they may be overwhelmed with a lot of information and story and perspective today. If they could take away one thing today, what would you leave them with? Keep pushing, just keep pushing, and and I think it goes back to something that you said earlier and something that I believe in is you know, it's like you gotta you gotta love the process. You gotta love the craft, like you can't love the result if you if you love the results, those come and go. That gratification can be delayed. You know, if you if you're in anything for recognition, if you're in it for the money, if you're in it for fame. If you're in it for glory, that could all be fleeting come and go, and it could be taken away like that. But you're love and your passion for what you're called to do. You're loving your passion for your purpose. That's up to you to maintain. And so I would say, you know, when it when it gets hard, like try to just rediscover and get reconnected with why you're doing what you're doing in the first place, because that that's what makes it worth it. Like, you know, I just love telling stories, regardless of whether whatever platform I had and whether it was taken or how it was taken, whatever platform I'm on or we'll be on. It's like nobody could, nobody could take away my ability and my passion and my love for storytelling. And so yeah, like just you know, just don't lose your love and have faith, have faith in yourself, have faith in a higher power, have faith or the universe that you prefer or whatever God you served. It's like just understanding there's a plan for your life, but that God has plans, you know, that has plans for you and plans to give you hope in the future and and to prosper you and not to harm you, you know, And so that that's what I just leaned into. And it ain't easy. It definitely ain't easy. But I think you said this earlier there. You know it's but, but it's worth it in the end, and all that all that pain is preparing you. It's molding you for something else because I just moved differently now, you know. I moved with a different urgency, with a different purpose, with a different piece, and I didn't always have it, but I'm grateful for it now. I'm grateful for this entire journey and I'm excited. Another phrase I love is and out. That drew me to you guys, showing what you're doing is like it's knowledge. Somebody told me that knowledge is the only thing that you can get away and not lose it. And so I love anybody that's in the business of just passing on knowledge and passing on wisdom. Right. And so when I first got to left ESPN and joined a startup and that lasted seven weeks, that's another podcast. But one of the partners at the startup said, you don't work for anybody anymore. Decide what you want your days to look like, decide what you want your weeks to look like, your months, your years. And that's always stuck with me. So even if you're doing a paycheck from somebody, even if you're not an entrepreneur, you don't have your own company or whatever, even if you work in a nine to five, still like I would, I would answer your question there and lean into that, like you decide how you want your days to look, and your and your weeks and your months and your years to look. It's best you can under your circumstances. And again, even if you're punching the clock, even if you on somebody else's payroll, shift your perspective to I work with them, not for them, Like you're working for yourself. You're working for your answering to a higher author, Like don't don't just don't just be miserable in a job, like always be walking in your purpose and use that job as a means doing it. And the doors of the church are open. As a fellow grandson of a preacher, I feel like anybody listened to this conversation today is going to leave with a wealth of knowledge and wisdom. Michael, thank you for your time, your testimony. My brother Donnie, I love you man. Thank you guys for joining us for another episode of Comeback Stories. Make sure you reach out and tell somebody that we've come back and that we're going to keep coming back. And you can check us out wherever you download podcasts, watch us, listen for us on the Inflection Point YouTube page, and we're gonna catch you guys next week. Comeback Stories is a production of Inflection Network and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.