Michael Gervais' Comeback Story

00:00:10 Speaker 1: Welcome back. Everyone's another episode of Comeback Stories. I'm here with my man, Donnie. Always a blessing to be here with you. Bro. We've got a really special guest here today, a high performance psychologist, someone that's worked with the Seattle Seahawks, world record holders, Olympians, artists and musicians, MVPs in every professional sport. He's the host of the Finding Mastery podcast, co founder that Compete to create digital platform. We have the one and only Michael Gervai. Michael, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me, Thank you for I'm stuck to be here with you guys. Really grateful to have you here. Man. We love to start by asking, can you paint a picture of what life was like for you growing up in your outside world and in your inner world? I like the duality of that question. Yeah, so the outside world was I grew up. My parents all set the scene as my parents kind of dropped out. So this was in the seventies when I was born, early seventy one, and my parents dropped out and they're like, Okay, we're not doing the city life anymore. And so they scraped some money together and bought a little farm up in Virginia, and it wasn't not a glamorous farm. It was like we had to go figure out water when it was cold, you know, like because the pipes will freeze and whatever, and so dirt roads, no street lights, few neighbors, and my parents didn't really have a job. So that's what it was like. And it's called lais a Fair parenting where they basically were really hands off and they're like, mother nature will teach you, there's natural consequences in this world. We'll try our best. We had a strong spiritual foundation as a family and be a learner. And if I didn't get home in time, like at eight years old, if I didn't get home in time, it was dark out, it got really scary. If I stuck my hand too far down, you know, in the creek, if you will, and something bit me, Like you gotta figure that out too before you just stick your hand in there, and you know, So it was lais a fair parenting, really casual. I had to learn kind of the way of the world from an honest perspective, you know, that's how it would say it. And then it was let's see, it was about fifth third grade. My parents said Okay, we can do better. And they came to the city, and they came to California, and so I was like a full transplant, you know. It was basically like this back hills type of you know, figured out nature boy hippie parents and coming to the city and not having a clue how the social world worked for little kids. So that was kind of the first little memory for me going, oh, you know, like it's different here. There's roads and there's street lights, and you know, it's just completely different. The conveniences were completely different. So that's how it was. I can relate to that kind of like an alien feeling, like you come into the environment like I don't fit in here, like I don't know who is like me or who will be able to relate to me. Like that's all I was in my friend groups, in the classes, I was in sports teams I was on And I want to ask you, like, how did you like cope with that? How did you kind of start to find your identity because mine I found mine through people pleasing and performing, which at the time, you know, kind of seemed like it worked and you know, went well for me. But in the long run, it's something that I'm still trying to shake and get rid of because it's not really a healthy way of expressing myself, informing an identity. So what was that like for you? That I love that awareness that you have because I think that this idea of fear of people's opinions is one of the greatest constrictors of human potential. It's this constant monitoring and checking and contorting and conforming to what their potential thought of me might be. And it's that relentless trying to get ahead of it so that you can fit in. And we all need to belong. One of the great human foundational needs is to know our place and to know that we matter. And if we can figure that out by not having to perform and not having to turn tricks and not having to look a certain way and whatever it might be, then and we can just settle into this moment and be here, and that stillness that we have is enough membership to be part of the community. So to answer your question, I've experienced the same thing that you've experienced when we and so my parents had me moved like five or six times in schools, so I had that same way. I should set up the context that my dad was a functioning alcoholic drug user. Mom was highly codependent. Still is. I love my parents and they did it. They did their very best and their kind, good people that had their own struggles. And so what they taught me was what you see is not what you necessarily get, So let's present a certain way, right, And they never said it like that, but my parents would act differently when people around. My dad wasn't you know, you know what drugs do you come in and out of it, you know, and like moody as hell when you're coming down, happy as all can be when you're in a good vibe, and then there's an agitation in between, you know. So so that was me trying to figure out the landscape early on. So I got really good at a social IQ, and I was highly anxious and didn't know what to do with that anxiety. So what I ended up doing is being angry, right, And so I took on the agitation that I would see my dad be when he didn't like how things were. So it was a way to keep people at bay where I could feel a sense of control. And so I was just I was an asshole, you know, at a young age. And so that's how I dealt with it, which is terrible, Like, it took me a long time to figure out what it means to be, you know, in lined with a spirit, to be grounded, to be present. It took me a long time. I've heard you talk about that with the other people's opinions, where you were saying that this is the modern day saber tooth Tiger is carrying what other people think, which was awesome here and that yeah, so true. Wow, I think, yeah, I think it is the most dangerous thing that most of us are dealing with. Of course, there's bad actors in the world, and there's people that are have bad intentions, and there are circumstances that we find ourselves in that there are is real danger. But at the same time, most of us the great risk in this world that we're in right now, in the modern world, is paying attention to what are they going to think of me? And that becomes dangerous because then I can tort I can form, I do something that is unauthentic, and you never really get to know who you are when you're playing that game. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm still trying to undo. I mean we're talking almost twenty five years of that. I mean, I would like, I was a pretty intelligent kid early on, and I just knew that through my performance or through fixing my existence to fit what people would want from me, was going to get me to you know, basically what I was taught what was success? Like I was always told like, oh, like performing well of football, and like getting good grades and having girls to want you. But then you get to the point in your life where you have all three things, and it's like you're more miserable than you've ever been. So it's like, I'm still trying to trying to undo all that. But yeah, and you know, it makes sense why you would have made some of the choices you made too, right, And we're I think we're all just trying to figure it out, right, We're all trying to figure out how to be okay. And all of us have pain, and all of us still experienced some suffering, and so just trying to figure out how to be okay is a life adventure. And no, there is no shortcut, there is no easy path here, but it does require squaring up with yourself in an honest way to say who am I? And to be honest with that, and there's when you do that, there's parts of yourself that you don't like. There's parts of yourself you're trying to hide from, which is a crazy in it of itself, isn't it. Yes? Yeah, So what does like life look like through high school? Past? High school? Can take us through a bit of that journey which you may have learned and the experienced along the way. Yeah, So high school, I started off in stick and ball sport and it was cool, but I didn't get the man made rules and the adults screaming at kids. So I remember experiencing that, like what are what is so intense here? And how come I can't go outside the lines? You know, like what it was soccer? And so I didn't get it. I didn't fit in there. And then I found action sports, and so in action sports it's kind of back to my original roots that mother nature will teach you. And so it was surfing, motocross, skateboarding, and so it was doing things where if you make a mistake, like in skateboarding it sounds like a bit of a punk sport, but if you make a mistake, you leave skin and blood on the asphalt, and okay, So I gotta be tuned, I gotta be sharp, I gotta figure out how where my edges are, or I keep leaving blood on the asphalt, bones being broken. Same with surfing. If you make some mistakes, mother nature will hold you down. She'll grab your attention quickly. And so I found myself attracted to those edges, to that place where risk is real and there's that aliveness that comes with it. And so that was high school years playing on the edges. But what I couldn't figure out is I couldn't figure out how to blend the action sport world with competitiveness, and so in actions with surfing, there's two types of surfing. There's hardcore surfing, which is a culture thing like just pull into the heaviest, most critical part of the wave, don't care if anyone saw it, don't talk about it, don't brag about it, but know that you did it. You put yourself in that position right, and then enjoy all of the gifts that that has, which is that thrill that comes when you're right on the edge of anything, you know anything, So anyways, and then there's competitive surfing, and competitive surfing is that experience where people are judging and I was a disaster. I never figured that out at a young age, and it set me down this path to eventually, you know, have a graduate degree in psychology and to try to work from the inside out, like what is this thing that's keeping me, that's holding me back. It's just my mind, my mind, not your mind, my mind. And so that's what led me down the path as I couldn't do it come competition day. Well, I mean that's like I feel like a lot of people will achieve a position or go after a degree to like I don't know, boost their status or to say like, oh, this is who I am or this is who I was told to be. But you went on to be a psychologist to figure yourself out. Yeah, I mean it's't that terrible, but yeah, you know, and as hard as I try, I'll never have a voice like yours, you know. So so I stopped chasing what was out side of me. That's that's really what happened. But it took me time to figure that out. And I think the important part of this narrative that we're on is that we've all lived interesting lives here and there's nothing more interesting outside of me than there is inside because it's it is so complicated. There's nothing outside that is stable enough or sturdy enough or compelling enough to give in to that allure. It can never fill. Like the biggest watch, the biggest car, the biggest house. Those are great, and if you can afford two of each, great, you know, like, no problems with that. But they're they're unsteady, they're not sturdy, they're not reliable. And if we're continually chasing those things outside of us, then we are fundamentally allowing the external to dictate the internal. And so the freedom happens when you work from the inside out and you're like, who do I want to be and how do I want to experience the folding moments of my life? And we get to that place, we get freedom, and guess when ends up happening. Performance goes through the roof. You know, joy and happiness and well being are ever presence, and you know we end up finding quote unquote flow state more often. But again, there's no hacks and shortcuts, but there is a decision to make. There's a fundamental decision for all of us to make. I've heard you talk about how most trajectories in life start with some type of pain point, what was the pain for you? The early memory of pain is the question we typically ask, and it's a good question. I really like when you asked that, and I would I will not shortcut the answer here at all. But I didn't have these large t trauma moments in my life where it was like that was a deciding moment. So I can't I can't go there because it's it's not an honest way that I experienced growing up. But I had. I had lots of hurt, you know, lots of trying to figure out that led to fear by not knowing what was happening in my family life. So I'll share one with you that sticks out forever, which is I was a punk, little kid, smart, trying to figure it out. And you know, my dad's over my right shoulder, my mom's over my left shoulder. We're doing homework and I'm in second grade. So I mean, it's funny how things happen, like how they stick with us. And she says, no, this is how you do the math. This is how you do it. My mom like frustrated, and she's frustrated with my dad rolls up beside me and he says, honey, maybe he's just stupid. Yeah, And so I remember going, oh shit, maybe I'm stupid. Oh this is stupid. Maybe maybe I'm stupid. And so that stuck. That stayed with me for a long time. And again, I love my parents. They didn't know better. Why would you say that too, you know, an eight year old kid. If you're not, if you're happy and well and full of joy, you would never go there. So it's an indication of some of their struggles. And that's not my codependency. That's me calling out the source was in pain and led to me feeling pain. And so that did do something to me where I didn't quite know how to be in my own self because I don't who wants to be stupid? Right? And that that second guessing on a regular basis. So that that's what one of the things that led to the anxiousness socially that I felt. That led to the agitation and the violence that I would express. And so that's that's kind of an early stem. But I don't want to over dramatize that because I don't think it's all that unique. You know, It's like one moment that stung me. I was I was speaking to an early draft pick, so I was helping out, you know, on the combine and the selection committee over the Seahawks, and I asked one kid a similar question. I said, what it was the hardest thing you experienced, and say, you know, you would think it was when my mom tried to kill me. It was a public story, and they said, you would think it was that, but that wasn't it. It was when I would come home from school over and over again and all our ship was on the lawn because mom couldn't pay the bills. That embarrassment, you know, is the thing that really is underneath all of my trauma. Like, okay, so we all have our stuff, so I don't want to I do not want to traumatize my story. I'm glad you made that your pain point. And I don't hear any over catastrophizing or anything in that because I believe that most things are caught and not taught, so that that one time. It's like the domestication process, which in the four Agreements that talks about how like we're just like told certain things and then we agree, you know, especially at the younger years of age zero to seven, where like all of our programming is happening. And so I'm glad that that is your pain, because I just believe that pain is part of the shared human experience. My pain looks different than your pain. Your pain sounds similar to Darren's pain. Whereas someone you know the story was not black enough, not black enough, which oh that was your sprouted in the not enough story, which in my experience as a coach and just talking to almost every human I've ever interacted with, is we all have a not enough story somewhere in there. Yeah? Is that cool? Cool? So well connects us all and I think that's like the important piece, And I'm glad that's why you shared this pain point, because it's like mine looks different than yours, but we're all the same, and we're all just trying to find a little freedom from that pain. And I do believe that the three gentlemen sitting up here, we're trying to transmute that pain into a greater purpose. And others will hide their work it, hide in their work, close their hearts, and so it's nice to be able to kind of shift it in a way that sets us free. We are taught that, you know, the sandbox I grew up in sounds like similar to yours, which is like put your head down, grind, figure it out, get to the next level. Da da da da. And what are those? Those are tears? Suck those up, you know, like we got no place for those, and so, um, there's a new world happening. Empathy is cool, Kindness is cool, you know, being sensitive is awesome. Being strong from a place that's grounded, not from like show me your abs, which I know both of you are fine in that category. I was watching some of your videos, so it's but like you know, it's like when you come from that ground in place and you can feel your way through with range, that's that's one of the safest humans on the planet. I want to be around those people, and I want to be that person where it's I'm not muted in my emotional experience, but I've got full range and I can go as deep or maybe deeper for my profession than the person or the people that I'm working with, And so I can hold some space for you to rattle. And I don't rattle right because that's the opposite of codependency. Where I grew up, people are rattling quick you know, covering it all up. Yeah, so who would you say, is you're on one of your first real teachers. I've heard some of your story and I know you had three and maybe though, maybe you can tell that story because that's pretty epic too. But yeah, those those happened in college. And you know, my grandfather was an important person in my life. And you know, so he came from the World two generation, which he was incredibly stoic, and he didn't say much. I never once heard him say a bad thing about another person. He had very few words, but he was so happy and so content. You know, He's an Italian immigrant that came and figured it out himself with all of that stuff. He was short, you know, immigrant and I had to fear out how to grind to take care of his family, and he did it. And when I loved about him, what he taught me was if you don't have something nice to say it, don't say it, you know, so just work from kindness and we're not trying to fake anything out, but just come from a kind place. So he was. He was one. And then I wasn't supposed to go to college. I didn't. I got a zero my psat and then I got a zero on my SAT. I went surfing for both of them, and so I wasn't. I wasn't supposed to go to college. And then mom pulled me aside and said, hey, listen, we tried, and you got to get a job and get out. Now this is age seventeen. So I got kind of pushed out of my house at seventeen. I was not ready for that. And what ended up taking place is that there was a community college and a private college. And so the private college they I was like, I'm not going to community college because that I don't know. I had no options, but I thought I wasn't. I was better letting you know. And so they said, listen, we figured you'd say that, and so they saved some money and they put me into a really nice school. And it was a two year school that I thought I was going to bullshit my way through and just keep surfing and going to school kind of. And there was three professors there that lit me up. And so they saw this young kid coming and they was like, it come over here. And it was a doctor Cuzio, doctor Perkins, and doctor Zenka, a philosopher or psychologist and a theologian it sounds like a bad joke. And so they just they showed me about the invisible world, and they showed me how amazing it is. And that was at the same time that I was struggling in my surfing. I couldn't figure out how to take it professional, and so it was like this, I don't know the serendipity of that story is for me, it changed everything. I hear common theme. It's just like so many people that you know go on to have a purpose in their lives. It's like there was a gift that was given to them, and then you know, they find purpose in giving that gift away to other people. You know. I feel the same way with you know, my experience being able to go to rehab, having an NFL pay for that, and now being able to give that to other people. And Donnie can relate as well. It's just like, that's how you get to where your life really means something. I guess is that something that you can relate to, Yes, it's it's it sounds like, is this your purpose? Is that what you just described your purpose? Yeah? Yeah? And if to drill it down, is the purpose to help people through a transition phase in their life or like, how do you how do you articulate your purpose more clearly? Um, I would say, yeah, helping people that have made mistakes, that feel like they're down and out and feel like everything is kind of done, and trying to end being that voice for people that maybe in that space and they're like like, well, I don't know where this is going to go, how this could even possibly get better? Because that was me. So I try to offer that voice in that experience, especially with you know, kind of the platform that I have, people are gonna have eyes on me just because of what I've accomplished on the field. So I'm like, I need to use this like it's been set up so perfectly for me to walk right into this and have it be my purpose. That's really cool And same with you, Donnie, You've got a similar purpose. Yeah. I mean it's just having listening to him have that conversation. And my purpose is to teach, inspire, and empower others to own their greatness and step into their purpose. But my whole identity, part of some context for you which will help probably guide the conversation, is I was a college baseball player, had a massive surgery on my knee most plane at Arizona State my senior year. That ended baseball for me and sent me into this deep, dark road of addiction for many years pain pills, I did a lot of other drugs, and at its core, when my life got so bad and I ended up in rehab, I started to get really curious, like what happened to my life? I was this baseball player star and now I'm a drug addict, Like what the hell happened? And when I started to do the work therapy twelve step, like really started to dive in. What I uncovered was that I didn't want to feel the emotional pain of the loss of my identity, my purpose, So I numbed it every day. When I stopped blaming the doctors and blaming all these surgeries that I had, and I got really honest, that was it. And so my life changed completely as I got into yoga, teach yoga and meditation and became a coach and was watching Hard Knocks and Herd Darren tell his story and I had on that on a way smaller platform and like, who is this dude? I've got to connect with him And at the time, maybe he had like five thousand Instagram followers or eight, but I met two two thousand. Yeah, So I messaged him and he got right back to me, and we started working together coach client and it's just turned into more of a a cool love story and a great connection where we had this vision of creating this podcast and the big thing that I've always worked with him and other athletes because this is what almost killed me was figuring out who the hell you are beyond the sport, because one day it's going to end, and if you don't know who you are, you're going to be fucked. Like I like, that almost killed me. And so Darren does music, he does the podcast. He's got a foundation, and so to hear him say that, it's really cool to see it come to life. Yeah. I love the context because what There's three components to purpose, right according to science, and it's it has to matter to you. Nobody can give you purpose. So this is the this is the adult work. You know. It's it's really hard to know purpose at a young age. Some do, I don't know how they do it, but I knew it mattered to me when I was younger, but it wasn't bigger than me and that's the second component. I mattered more, you know, like I was so selfish and I was trying to get my needs met out of my pain. And so three components. It has to matter to you, it's bigger than you, and it's got a future orientation, meaning it's down the road. So it's not the purpose of now, it's the purpose on an arc. And it's so it sounds clinical to almost kind of pull it apart, but when you think about it, what matters to you, what really matters to you, and what is bigger than you? If you get those two things together, then it starts to get more clear about why I'm doing what I'm doing. Why am I in the grind, Why am I getting beat up and flipped upside down by life's turbulence. Why am I going through this? Well, it's because I want to see my kids have a better chance than me. I want to college education from my kids that I couldn't have myself, or whatever it might be. And so purpose has to be bigger than you, a matter to you. Those are the two big components to it. And so mine is to help people live in the present moment. And that's what I needed. To your point, Darren is like, I didn't know how to do that, and so I was covering up all types of ways and don't look at me, look at what I can do surfing and otherwise. And so that was the reason the present moment is so important. I'll start there. Is because the present moment is where high performance is expressed. Okay, so that's cool, that's a very surface thing to think about, but that's like the hook that gets people like that. People come to me because they want to perform better. But the second and third part are much deeper about the present moment. So the first part of the present moment is that's where high performance happens in the present moment. The second it's where wisdom is revealed, the deeper part of the human experience. And the third it's where all things that are true, beautiful and good are experienced in the present moment. And our minds are so undisciplined, so busy, so formulated like a junkyard, you know, like there's interesting parts all to it, but we struggle with a unified way of seeing the world and interpreting experiences because most of us have never formally trained our mind as you would recognize. So without formal training of the mind, it becomes it's fucking hard, Like it's really hard to figure it out. So when you train your mind, you're more equipped to deal with the external changes that take place, and you're more equipped to interpret and understand the internal changes that are taken place as well. I saw a definition that you've had for mindfulness. I believe it was it's like a radical act of commitment to understanding how you work. Yeah, pretty much. It's psych Yeah, because it's like that's I find myself having that commitment most of the time. Then sometimes it's like I don't choose to take that act, and it's like sometimes I can drift away a little bit, but a lot of the time, most of the time like I'm there, I can lock in, I can be bowed in. But it's like that radical act, like all the time that every single opportunity, every single moment choice can be so difficult for people. I know it's for me because so human. Yeah, I'll double down on that is that ultimately, all we really get is experience. This is an experience, right, and so this is all we really get. And if we don't have an understanding of how we want to experience or what the actual experience is like. Of course we're going to skim across the top. Of course we're going to be interested in how we present, the way we look, the way we sound, more more importantly than how we want to actually experience the unfolding experience. It is a radical act to invest in your own psychology. It is a radical gift of love to do that, because when you're more present, of course you're more present for the people you love. They feel safe, they can drop their guard, they can be who they are and live life in the richest unfolding way. And we're in the business of high performance. When people do that, they end up figuring out what potential really looks like because they're not playing a secondary game all the time. And then I'll put an asterisk next to it. I think you guys will both recognize that you've experienced high level sport and you did it with the operating system that you had. Sometimes the craziest mfor in the room is the one that's going to carry us to do some crazy things. And it's unreasonable to think that you should be in the league well six six two hundred plus, you know whatever. But so you had some advantages, but it is unreasonable to think of all the people that tried that you would be the one. And so there's an unreasonableness that also accompanies high performance. And so there's just that little bit of uncorked like I think I can do that, and getting over your skis if you will, like pushing on the edge, I think I can do that is a requirement as well. So it's not about just the full zen experience. Let me go at the flow. Every moment is a wave that I'm going to ride. Sometimes it's like no, non't no, I need to figure out how to do A, B and C even when it feels dangerous to me, and so that unreasonable. It is also important, you know, to experiencing potential. I like how simple your purpose statement is, but how powerful when I hear that in presence and really what that does. I'm always talking about how presence is this word. It's really often overused but rarely embodied, right, But it's it's a practice and what we practice grow stronger. But the true transformation happens when like message, messenger and timing all come in at once. And how many times do we miss those opportunities where work off somewhere else, and there's an opportunity God, divine, whatever you want to call it, right here and we're not there. How many times does that happen in our lives? So, yes, it's work, but I still think it's the easier, softer way to go through life, right then, to keep banging our heads against the wall, trying to like do things the same old way, and in a world that's really addicted and afflicted to a lot of distraction that's coming our way. You got her poetry about you, no doubt afflicted. It's really good. Just feel that. I mean, I teach this shit and I'm like constantly the phone thing is still like you know, and I'm always talking about how I'm still tripping over the things that I teach every single day. But it's just I have so much compassion for the world knowing that, man, if I'm still struggling with this and I'm teaching it and trying to stay in the work, it just I just know we still have a lot of work to do. We do, and so that's why you're your guys platform and what you're doing is important. And then I think it's also equally important to be very clear. There are no shortcuts, there are no hacks, there's no tricks and tips. There's good daily work to put in place to be able to figure out like who am I? How do I want to experience experiences? And when those get really clear, it's like those are the biggest rocks that in the container. There are practices. And I think that we in psychology because it's invisible, we don't do a great job of making it concrete. But the practices in psychology can be very concrete. Our thoughts are invisible our mind. We don't know where it goes. We know it exists. We don't know how much thoughts weigh. We don't know you know, where they start, where they begin, but we know just like gravity, we don't gravity exists, right, but we can't see it, but we see the artifact of gravity. Same true as of the mind. We can't see the mind, but we can see the artifact. We can see our behaviors. We can see how our heart rises and falls with stress or the interpretation of stress or risk. And but the practices are really important, Like meditation is a practice, maybe maybe a ground zero tier one practice. Another practice is breathing, you know, to be able to modulate your stress. Another practice is the way that you interpret events and how do you practice those by talking them out with people that you trust. How do you experience that, How did you interpret that? And just being very clear, Wow, I keep seeing things as a threat to me. I'm not sure that's going to continue to work in my life, and that there's a I was talking earlier to you guys about a threat versus opportunity. I said, everyone has a fundamental decision. That's the fundamental Do you see the world as dangerous and threatening or as an opportunity to grow and learn? And that fundamental decision I think is really important for us. So anyways, it's a long way of me saying and asking you guys, like, what are some of the practices that you guys are working? Yeah? Are you asking? Yeah? Yea yeah. I mean for me, it's it's a dialed in morning routine because I just know what's at stake if I don't have those non negotiables in place. Every morning, it's simple things like waking up and before my feet hit the ground, thinking of a few things I'm grateful for, super simple before my feet and then my feet at the ground make the bed, so there's like two winds before I relieve and like open my eyes barely, and then there's space before I'll look at my phone. That consists of reading a couple of devotional books like Daily Still Work and a couple other ones, and getting my meditation practice in which sometimes it's five minutes of the morning, sometimes it's fifteen minutes in the morning. More times it's shorter than than longer. But it's just those are the things that I will not look at my phone until I do those things because I've done it before where I will grab the phone and it gets in the way and I'm just a shit show. And then the other pieces moving my body in the first in the first couple hours usually go into a yoga class or doing some type of like hit class, and that movement is like all for my mental health. It's only for my mental health because I'm just not comfortable in my own skin until I until I move cool. What are some of yours? Pretty similar to Donnie Um, wake up, praying um, getting centered around uh, you know who God is to me? Meditating, gratitude lists, writing the journal, got a little devotionals um like to walk around my neighborhood. Um, so that Um, I don't know if like Andrew Huberman's kind of describing like like circadian rhythms and stuff like that, but just actually just getting out there and walking in my neighborhood I started it just started to feel really nice. So and putting the fold on phone on hold as well. Um, it's something for me, um, and just uh like music, like I'll write some things in the morning. I'll sometimes I'll start a beat as part of part of my morning routine just because that keeps me centered probably uh, if not more than anything in my life. So it's a it's a mixture of those practices. The combinations may look different some mornings, but the ones where I can knock all those out and have time to do it is some of my best mornings. You know. What's a fun one is see if you guys have already doing this, but playing with thresholds. So those are things that happen in your home, and then when you leave your home, you leave your sanctuary. There's other thresholds that you walk through. So maybe it's a car, maybe it's the facility that you're training at, whatever, Maybe it's the yoga studio, or the fitness studio or whatever. But using a threshold, and I learned this working at the Olympics, is that we would use thresholds to be connected to the type of competitor that we wanted ourselves to be. And so we walk through a threshold. It's like a moment like okay. It's not like I just switch it on, but we use that term loosely like okay, switch on. And it's a way to when you walk into the threshold is to be more connected to the person you want to be in that upcoming environment. It's a cool way to practice it as well. Right, And so if you think about the origins of that, for me were my first Olympic Games. But it stems back like when you walked into a synagogue, when you walked into a mosque, when you walked into whatever your place of work it might have been. You did not walk in with your cell phone. You did not walk in like chewing your gum and like jabbering with your friends. Right, you walked in and you kind of got yourself together. So the thresholds are a great way to practice being attuned to the type of person you want to be. That's beautiful So for example, if I was to walk out of my place and walk in, sit in, walk into my car, that's right, and I were to say gratitude or called it in gratitude or took a deep breath like bring broad awareness to that. So the moment I stepped foot or sat in my car, that would be the threshold. Yeah, or that's exactly it. And it can be super concrete like something that you do, or it could be more casual, which is just attuning to who you want to be. It could be threshold like you know, for me, it's more like sit up, you know, like attuned to this moment like this is a chance to be you the way you want to be. And so you could do it like okay, what am I grateful for? If you wanted to practice gratitude or if you want to practice intention, or if you wanted to practice confidence or whatever, and if you know the person you want to be, then it's just more casual than that. I use a beautiful one for myself and for my coaching clients of coming home from work or for me coming home from teaching a class and stepping foot back inside of my when I was in a relationship like stepping foot back inside of my house almost like a clearing, right, So you're like letting go of yoga teacher Donnie, and now you're going to be the partner. Right, So there was a clearing that had to happen. So I didn't bring my shit, bring out everybody else's energy with me. You can't walk into your home with your cell phone on, like if you're walking to your sanctuary in that way, like it's already Like, so my wife, I've been married for thirty seven years. And so my wife we married, we met really young. We met in high school and she looks at me like, I think you lost your mind, you know, coming here like talking about work, you know. So it's like very clear, come in right and so and it's a great simple little practice to think about. Yea, wow, you know Darren, I have people told you about how you listen? Yes, I've heard that a few times. Yeah, so it probably is one of your superpowers the way that you listen. Just watching both of you guys, the way you listen, it feels like you're not only just listening for what to say next, but you're metabolizing and you know, like really thinking through and feeling through is what's happening? Is that accurate for both of you guys. Yeah, we've we've talked about this a lot because I found times, especially like early on with the show, I'm like, oh, I gotta drop a gym, like I gotta make sure I come with a crazy quote or like like just something that'll like have people be like whoa, like where did that come from? Instead of just like letting the conversation kind of flow. And then sometimes I feel like i'd like miss out on things right, be like, oh wait, I'm not really present. I'm trying to formulate this thing in my head so I can look cool saying it. And so once I kind of started to internalize that that was what I was doing, I tried to make it more of it and tension of listening, and it just makes it easier. I don't have to be like, Okay, let me make sure I say the right thing to doctor Gervais over where You're like, I can just have a conversation with a human being. So it's noticeable that both you guys do that, and for many people it can be overwhelmingly intense. Have you heard that from your friends? I've heard a couple few years ago, probably like five years ago back, I had a teacher that I was having a conversation with after a yoga class, and I noticed how well she was listening to me, not chiming back, not saying much back, just asking me short, powerful questions and looking and I was I had a moment there. I was like, Wow, I am not a good listener because she was modeling and mirroring, like what it means to truly have like level three listening, where she's just dancing in the moment and I'm not worried about the next thing that we're going to say. Right. This is what I used to do early on in twelve step meetings, where you know that you'd either have a ticket or go in a circle, and it would be about my turn, and I'm just rehearsing like the gym I'm going to drop and what I'm going to say, because I care so much about what other people think that I don't want to look like I don't know what I'm talking about. And then it would get to my turn, and then the meeting would be over and I wouldn't even get to talk, and then the whole meeting I didn't hear anything, because I was rehearsing what I was going to say. I never saw it crazy the games we play, it's present, Yeah, it's present. Yeah. So I don't know if you're familiar with one of the projects I spent time on, but it was the Red Bull Stratus program, And so this was Felix Baumgartner had this wild idea to go up one hundred and thirty thousand feet, you know, and in this in a capsule that some of the brightest minds in aerospace built, and a huge helium balloon that took him up. No one has ever jumped from that to break the speed of sound. So he wanted to be the first human body to break the speed of sound. And so one of again I'll explain some of the drama, is that just imagine what it was like to get into capsule, knowing that when you go up the first five hundred feet if something goes wrong, probably going to die. When you go up for the remaining five hour ascent, if you get the gas and oxygen exchange wrong, probably going to die if you get all the way up to the top. The custom door that they built it was this round sliding door. If it couldn't open, because that is one of the most hostile environments on the planet. If you couldn't get it open, we got problems. If you actually do get out of the capsule and you're standing on the ledge one hundred and thirty three one hundred and thirty thousand feet above the mother Earth, and your boots have about six inches over the ledge because the ledge is so small, and you're floating in space. When you jump, think about this for a minute, and you go into a flat spin where you're twisting, you have about five seconds before all the blood rushes to your head and your feet and you would land, but you would land in a vegetative stay. And then the brightest minds in aerospace weren't sure if as you potentially pass through the sound barrier mock one that they were not sure if your head and your I'm sorry, if your hands and your legs would rip off because of the drag. So the things that we're talking about, like deep listening, imagine how intense he wasn't listening. Imagine how he intense He wasn't using his imagination to know exactly how he wanted to experience himself during those moments Imagine the amount of mental imagery that he would do. Imagine the way he would speak to himself. Imagine the level of trust he had to have in other people. Imagine the clarity that he needed to be able to pull his team together to make sure that everything was buttoned up. So the relationships that we have with ourselves and the relationships we have with each other is how the extraordinary takes place. So without the relationship with ourselves, this is the greatest adventure, the relationship that you have with yourself. And then when you can get it other people together on a shared mission, Like that's what Jesus did, That's what Buddha did, That's what Confucia did. That's a mother Teresa did. That's what doctor King Junior did. That's what Malcolm X did, and go on and on and on. They knew themselves, they knew their purpose, they had relationships with themselves, relationships with others, and they agreed on a shared mission. You change the world when that happens, whether it's your world or the world. And that's that's that's that's the type of partnerships I want to be part of. And so you guys are an emblem of listening well and so on the other side of it makes me feel like my experience here matters, which is really cool. Thank you for the gift. Oh yeah, thank you. I want to ask you a similar question that I asked you before. You know, as your purpose started to formulate and you found yourself finding opportunity with teams with fortune one hundred companies with opportunities that you have today, you know, what was that journey like and what was the relationship like with yourself along the way. And it's built on trust. And so the complicated part of trust is that trust is baked. This is the psychologist now speaking. Trust is baked from the ages of zero and two, pre verbal. So if your caregiver did their job and they took care of you, you would say, before you could even put words to something, you would say, yeah, I think people were basically trustworthy because when you cried, someone took care of you. If they weren't, if they were in their own drama for whatever reasons, you would come out of early childhood and be like, m I don't know. I just get a sense that, you know, I got to have my own back. I don't know if I can rely on other people. So I'm using that as a step off into Satin Adela is the EO of Microsoft, and we had some really fun, exciting, wild success up at Seattle. You know, we're back to back Super Bowls. One one lost one in dramatic fashion. And Sati Nadella was watching the culture that coach Carol and I were working on. And it was a culture that we were everybody was involved in building. It's not one person or two people, everybody's involved in it. And Sati Nadela was about four weeks into his job and Microsoft has about two hundred thousand employees. Think about that for the size of that for a minute. It's it's definitely a top five country or top five company in the world. And so he's about four weeks into his job and he was watching what we're doing from a distance, of course, and he asked me to come over to his office and he says, how did you guys do it? I said, Oh, we built it on relationships. So relationship with self, then relationship with others, relationship with experience, relationship with a shared mission, relationship, how we're going to have each other's back when somebody makes a mistake. So it was built on relationships, and then when you do hard things in your own life, you earn the right to say I can trust me. I have my own back because I've done hard things and I've earned the right to say I can do hard things. But you can't fake your way and lie your way or cheat your way through it and earn the authentic right to say, I do hard things and I figure shit out. So it starts first and foremost there, and then it gets into trust with others. So when you get into that game, you know, that's where you start to get into the scaling as well. But things usually break down. How about this, like at the end of the year, athletes kind of grab lock arms, right, this is a lock of a moment type of over TV dramatizing lock arms, like let's go get it, you know, who ha, here we go. We can do it, you know, super Bowl or Bust whatever that cheesy stuff is. And then as soon as stuff starts going wrong, people unlock their arms pointing fingers. So if you can keep your arms locked on the shared mission and have each other's back when things go sideways, that's where really interesting things start to take place. And so that's how we scale it at taking the best practices in sports psychology into business, and right now in business, start misstart this way. People are struggling right now, you think about it oversimplified. People are thriving, struggling, and suffering one of those three and we go in and out right. And so people are suffering and struggling right now, and primarily not because the external world has changed so much and the pandemic and recession potentially, and it's not that, it's because we're not equipped internally with the skills to manage the external changes that are happening. And so there's a there's a ringing of the bell right now saying you want the skills that people like you guys have, what are those practices? And it's an exciting time and you guys are carving the path an important way, So keep talking about the practices and keep making it cool to invest on the inside. I'm curious for you. I've been sober nine years and this last year explored some psychedelic journeys, both psilocybin and buffo or five M R DMT. I'm just curious your thoughts on those medicines. If you're a believer, if you've experienced it or what your thoughts are around it. Yeah, that's a cool question because the research that's coming out right now, it's pretty interesting and it's still early, but it's really interesting. And I've had a couple of folks on I don't know if you've had doctor wile On Andrew Wild not yet. Yeah, I hope, I hope you have a chance. I'm happy to to see if you know. I can make an induction for you guys. But he's phenomenal. I trust him. He's a deep mind and he's been here for a long time understanding this stuff, and I think it's compelling and interesting. However, for me personally, I have a tension that I have an unlocked yet and that tension is to work from the inside out without assistance. And I don't know, I don't know why that. I am so clear on that at this point when I know that I will take medication when there's other pains involved, but I but I am aggressively late to take medication. And so I think it might be because my family, my uncle was an addict and put himself on a train track, and so I've I've experienced like you guys have the highest of trauma when it comes to substance abuse. My dad's an addict, right, So I know what the turning to an external substance for the internal experience of healing looks like. And there's a place for medication. I think there's a place for um pharmacology, and there's also a place for um more natural remedies as well that you're talking about. I'm just not I'm not interested in personally at this point. I'm reserving the right though, because the research is compelling and some of the storytaking is where the storytelling is remarkable. And so I've had folks, some of the folks that have been on your podcast say it changed me and I'm different from it. And I could have taken fifteen years to do this internal work, and I think that I'm there faster. So anyways, that's where I'm at with it. It's not for me right now. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I've heard you talk about the three things that we need to square up with. Can you share a little bit about those? Well, I think you're referring to there's three things as humans we can train. Oh, well, it's the death we need to square up. Yeah, yeah, so I think we're very very clear that when I say this, but it's harder to live aligned with it is that the three of us and everyone listening is going to die. And so if we don't square up with what life means and what our experience of death is, then we end up playing this other game that hey, I'll see you later, when that might not be true, you know. And so it's this fantasy land that we live in that I lived in for a long time. When I say goodbye to you, guys, it'll be weird now that you know what I'm doing, but I will. I'll take a half a beat to be like, I don't know if I'll see you again. So I mean it. You know, I wish you well. You know, goodbye. I wish you well. And that's because death happens quickly and it's a part of life. I'm not interested in life and death. I'm interested in birth and death and the life in between and maybe after. I'm not sure what to believe in that right now, but I'm really interested in the quality of life and the finality of physical death. And so, yeah, so I think we got to square up with it and treat life in the fragile way that it is. I don't think humans are fragile. I think life is fragile, and so that's one. And I think we got to square up with the tripires for anxiety. What trips you up, what gets you rattled, what unsettles you? You know, is it the way? It's usually the external world set of conditions happen, and then it goes through your you know, funky little filter my mind, if you will, and it goes through my mind and then it comes out and all of a sudden, I'm agitated, irritated, I'm stressed out, I'm short tempered with my kid or my wife or whatever, like what the hell? So we got to square up with our trip wires for anxiety. I think those are really important. Bring it to the light, whatever it is, shine the light of awareness on to it. I believe that awareness is what loosens the grip in a natural way. Right. It's like the if we're aware of it, then we're not of that. It's just continuing to shine the light. I love that you say, because we're you're not even in the game, not even you're not even you're not even in the arena yet. If you don't have an awareness of how your inner self works, not even close. If you don't know how thought one and thought two and thought three and emotion A, B and C, how those work together, there's no chance that you'll ever really understand this immense experience of what it were capable of, let alone, like you could get, you could peek, you could have some extraordinary outcomes, but definitely the sustainability of it isn't part of the game. I see you nodding, Darren, right, yeah, yeah, I was reading UM so Donnie and I are like in twelve step programs and reading this book with my sponsor right now. It's called Drop the Rock the Ripple Effect, and Drop the Rock is essentially like you know, um, shedding yourself of like you know, character defects, negative like reactions to things, And it's just like it talks about in the book, it's like we need to move from this place of emotions seeing them as a like I want to feel them or I don't want to feel them, as more so seeing them as like sustainable and unsustainable for my recovery for my life like and looking at them like that instead of like trying to make friends or enemies out of my emotions, but really just trying to get a deeper understanding and seeing like what emotions can allow me to maintain a consistency in the life I want to live beause I don't want to just have peaks. I don't want to have these good little moments of like relief, like I want freedom. Yeah, So there's an unfolding moment that's always taking place, like everything's a continuation. And I hear you saying, like, you know what peak performances, you know what that is like when it kind of comes together. But then if you don't have the right inputs, it's not sustainable. It doesn't happen over and over again. Unless you have the right sustainable inputs. And so emotions are complicated. They are so flip and powerful. And let's just be really clear that emotions are physical and observable. Feelings are private and unobservable. So the emotion that like, let's say that a gorilla runs in right now, and you know, Donnie, you're you are the guerrilla wrestler, and you know, Darren and I look at you like, okay, time to go, Donnie, you know, and we're jumping behind you right that we'll all have an activation. And then if I interpret that activation that fight flight freeze type of mechanism that that happens, that's totally natural. Within two seconds, that flood happens. That's emotion. The way that I interpret that is my feeling. And so if you this is where it gets really fun. So it'd be obvious if a gorilla runs in, it's pissed off, and I'd be scared. I don't know what else to do. Okay, So so I run behind you, Donnie, and then Donnie, you've been bragging to us for a long time. How you You're like, you're pretty good at rest of grilla is right? And then the gorilla runs in and instantly you say, yes, I got a chance to do what I love to do. You'll interpret all that activation as excitement, as like the good stuff, right. But but if you interpret the gorilla running in as oh shit, Darren's gonna know I'm full of shit, right, oh shit, here we go, don't fuck this up. Now, all of those emotions, the physic physiological on that you're experiencing, turns to anxiety, not excitement. Okay, So it's that subtle. It's just that subtle it's just that little oh shit, or I love this, this is interesting. Oh I wonder what this is going to turn into. Oh wow, how's this going to play out? Oh? I think I can figure this out. Let's keep going. All of that is like stress makes me I look forward to it, as opposed to, hey, hey, hey, this isn't right now, this isn't how it's supposed to be. Stress breaks me and I don't like how I feel when I'm getting tested. Are you trying me? You know that type of thing, as opposed to, oh, this is interesting, how this is going to go? Let's see how this folds unfolds. And there's a there's a knowing that comes from the ability to lean in to say, oh this is interesting. So anyways, it's our interpretation of the emotions that makes us uniquely ourselves, and that sophistication of knowing the difference between feelings and emotions goes a long way. I love that you use the word interesting find myself over the last few years like saying it's not like a neutral word, right, It's not like a positive or a negative. It's just like, oh that's interesting, Like when somebody's you know, annoying me, and I can say, oh, that's interesting as opposed to like passing judgment on it. Either way, it's a good neutral word. And I like that you guys are working on like the emotions right now. You're saying like it's not good or bad. It's not um friends or enemies they are. They are there and their signals for a reason. The way you interpret it. You know, you can deep kind of like karate I guess, which is like back up right angles, chop chop, or you can be more like akdo, which is like, oh how do I use this? Oh that's interesting? You know, let let me lean into it or lean away from it. But you know, having it be information as opposed to right or wrong, friend or enemy, you know that that duality of things in and of itself creates problems. Yeah, I'm just seeing how it's all time, everything's kind of tying in together because it's like you can't choose that perspective unless you're present to the moment and present to that emotion. That emotion just comes and hits you. Like part of me. Things I'm trying to work on is like, you know, not being overly self sacrificial and like people pleasing like in my relationship because and then it's like, well, like what's wrong? And then it's like that emotion like wants to just like shut just shut down like and not. And if I'm not present to that emotion, I'll be like, oh, well, nothing's wrong, like and then like later go back and be like oh man, like instead of like being able to communicate right there right then in the moment, it's like you have to take that radical act at all times. And it's just like, you know, you think you can maybe get away with a moment of not being able to be present, but like what is that what's the price you're gonna have to pay for not being present to that moment into that emotion when it comes up. So it's so so if you're not aware, you're not able to practice with it. If it comes up in a moment where like someone squares up to you, like a loved one squares up and it's like do you really care about me? And you've been bullshitting your way flipping through Instagram for you know, weeks on hand. You know, like no, no, I do I do I do? What are you practicing? You know, what do you really practicing? But I love that you're trying to sort out like people pleasing because kind of is at the core of that, right, Like you I get a sense you want to be kind, yeah, and you want to be a good, loving human to this to your partner, and it gets um there's a thin line between that and codependency. And so codependency, as you guys are well aware, is that my happiness depends on your happiness, and it becomes problematic because you're thinking of yourself less, not less often, but you're thinking of yourself less and their needs are more important than expressing your needs. And so where it gets really clear is like, let's use an example where you know, my wife says, what do you want for dinner? I go, you know, whatever you want and she goes, no, no, no, will you pick? I go no, no, no no, whatever whatever you want. Like I'm trying to be nice, but she if I'm but I'm missing it. She's like, no, help me out, like I don't want to make a decision. And so being able to articulate what's happening inside of you as opposed to just defaulting to no, no, no, whatever you want, but being honest, like you know, I know what you want move off of the dinner story. I know what I think, I know what you want, but I got to tell you my experience in this like I just kind of feel triggered about it this way. I'm having a response this way too. And so when two adults have that conversation my experience and your experience, and it's a calibration, we move with so much more speed and depth. And isn't that a cool combination speed and depth? Yeah? And so it's like, this is my experience, what's your experience? Oh okay, good, I think I know your experience. What's your experience? Oh okay that my experience is this? Oh and then after a while, it just gets so much easier. But you got to bring yourself forward and that requires vulnerability, which, as you guys would recognize, athletes how about this, chin check me if I'm off on this. But athletes are better at vulnerability than most people because it's a daily practice, a fundamental practice to put it on the line, a daily practice to be exposed in front of peers, and you know, adults that are saying that's not good enough. And so there's a vulnerability required to take a risk, to go for it. And if you don't practice it, you you can't stay on a team, right unless you're so freaky that you eat pizza and beer and jump forty two inches and run a four forty flat when you're thirty eight, you know, like they're they're freaks. Are you one of those freaks? You might be huh you are? Yeah, so you could eat beer and pizza or whatever, And yeah, I mean I eat a lot better now, but I used to be able to, yeah, get away of everything. I mean my first two years in the league, I eat fried food, damn near every day. Jesus, Jesus. I mean so and then so it kind of makes sense why you would over rotate to saying I'm an athlete, which I think those are three most dangerous words in elite sport. I'm an athlete is did you say? Did you guys say that to yourself? Like I'm an athlete? I mean, my whole identity was rapped. I mean I didn't know it at the time, but obviously with what transpired in my life, like was very clear it was all about that. I think the three most dangerous words you know, and the reason being is because you are so much more and so am I Like, I'm not an athlete, but like I was once aspiring and I think it was. It's the three most dangerous words in elite sport. It's the three most dangerous words at most cocktail parties. Oh I am a fill in the blank salesperson, CEO, entrepreneur? Is that it is? That? Is that all? No? No, no, there's more, but like definitely, people over rotate to something that they do and then they want people others around them to identify with, like, oh, you're really good at that. And so now we've just conscripted the entire human experience into a performative experience. I think it's really dangerous. And that's why you went through Donnie and identity, identity foreclosure. So shit shut down early for you, right like when athletics was ripped away. I don't know if it happened for you, Darren, where like when you went through some of your your crises, Yeah, it did. It forced me to kind of be like, let's let's let's find out who who you really are? Because I got I mean I got banned for the league for at least a year, and so things weren't looking up. I mean, if you were in Vegas. You probably wouldn't bet onle me making a comeback, so it was it forced me to you know, rehab and having a job at Sprouts and just like all right, like let's let's figure out who you really are, like, because you're not going to walk around saying I'm a grocery clerk or you know, or just walk up to everybody you see and be like I'm a drug addict. Like no, it's like who are you? There's a lot of who are you? Echoing in your mind for at least a year, and that is one of the most ancient meditations is to sit down and get honest with yourself, to take on that adventure, internal adventure, and just start with the prompt who am I? And then feel it and notice it? And six seconds later who am I? Six seconds later who really am I? It's just like hours and days and years of who am I? That adventure is It's never ending. It feels like how do you guys answer that? I mean today, for me, it's just a man of service, Like I think that is you know, the beauty of going through my past and our PASTI addiction is that identified that the core of our disease with selfishness and self centeredness, and it gave us the antidote of service, which ultimately was the greatest life hack ever. Is just to be of service, and it's certainly given me an access point. My past has given me an access point to a greater purpose. And today it's this isn't my saying. I think Gary V said it once, but my selfishness is my selflessness, which it's just I just know, like it's karmically like what you put out comes back to you. But it's just a beautiful way to stay the hell out of my own way. That's cool, It's funny. I had a conversation with this this dude named Moss shot a Moss. He works at the float tank spot that I go to, and he's like, I mean, he's just like a spiritual I don't even know what to what to call him, but m he was. He told me one time he was like, ask me who I am. I just say I am and I'm just like I sat with that. I was like, what does that even mean? But it's like I guess to me, like an interpretation of that would be like like for me, whatever God calls me to be in a moment caused me to be in a relationship or like, you know, I don't I'm not confined to one thing or one role or um, you know, just being able to offer one thing, like I can be whatever I'm like kind of like brutally like formless in a way. So it's like, I don't know, I don't know if I have an answer to that question, but just that take on it. But saying like I am is just like I'm unpacking that right now. So I feel like maybe one day I'll have an answer. Yeah, it's good. I asked that same question to Deepak Tropra, yeah, on the on the podet the Finding Mastery podcast, and he said, I am non local. No, okay, what do you mean? And so it was a it was a beautiful dissertation about like I am so much more and all of us are so much more than this local experience that we have right now. And so his email address is whatever whatever dot nonlocal. So yeah, so like he's about it, like I am so much more than this physical form. And so we have a mutual friend and meditation teacher David G. Are you familiar with David G? I? No, I'll have to connect you with him legend. So he's got um. I think the Sanskrit is a hambermusmi, which is I am the universe. Got me thinking about him, got me thinking about him connecting. Yeah, he's been on our podcast. He's a dear friend and just like for me, he made meditation accessible his storytelling. And he looks the part guru, like white beard, white hair. But he's so cool in so many ways, love sports, like a guy's guy. But then yeah, guru is a strong word to try not to like throw that around there, but he's he's up there, very cool. Yeah, yeah, man, we could go on forever. We're gonna have to go apart two probably with you. I appreciate you guys, and anytime, like, I love what you're doing, and I've been a fan from a distance, and so thank you for including me what you're doing. Thank you. Yeah, I want to just acknowledge you. I mean, this one was something I was looking forward to for a while. I've been following your work for a while, and as I said before we started recording, like hearing your knowledge and your wisdom and the work that you've put in to gain this knowledge. It's just that reminder for me that I know nothing, and when I see something in somebody that I want, I want what they have. I just want to get close to those people. And I think that's kind of been a kind of a superpower. A gift of mine is just to like when I have when I see something, I just get close because proximity is power. And I just want to keep learning. And you've been a great reminder to me, like, man, I got a lot to learn and and a lot still to give back her. Yeah, thank you felt all of that, So thank you, Yeah, thank you. Man. Um. I feel like you have a beautiful way of sharing wisdom and experience without being on like some like hilltop or high top, like like talking down people because you're so wise and so this and so accomplished. Like it just feels like you're just right here sharing with us in a way that like lifts us up and inspires us. And I'm sure there's so many people that feel the same way. So we're just grateful for your time today. Man, that is awesome. Thank you. Um. I definitely don't want to be on the mountaintop. I want to be I want to be down, you know, um, hanging with the crew, and so thank you for that. Thank you. Yeah, it just makes me realize, like I think you you, I'm feeling this that you just embody presence like that is the word that comes up, um, and that's part of your purpose. So it's cool to see it being um. Maybe not even shared through your words, but we're sitting here in the flesh like feeling that presence. Yeah, thank you. Guys. All right, everybody, we're out. What's upcomeback stories, family, It's Donnie dropping in here. So did you know that Darren and E's relationships started by me being his personal development, mindfulness and mindset coach. I want to let you know about both my one on one coaching program, The Shift, and my group Mastermind Elevate your Purpose. These coaching programs are specifically designed for people who are ready to take the next step in their purpose and level up their career, personal finances, and have more connected, deep and meaningful relationships. My gift and part of my purpose is to help others take that next step and leveling up their lives so that they can have a greater impact on the lives of others, create success that sustainable yet evolves and grows, and help build a legacy that will outlive your life. If this is calling you, just go to Donnie Starkins dot com and apply for either one of my programs.