Protecting Your Joy

00:00:04 Speaker 1: Comeback Stories is a production of Inflection Network and iHeartRadio. Welcome back, everyone to another episode of Comeback Stories. Darren Waller, one year co host. I'm here as always with my brother and my friend, mister Donnie Starkins, and we have an amazing guest today on with us. Somebody who's from their last name. He may recognize them as a member of a legendary gospel family, but somebody that's carved her own path, not only singing but acting as well. And we'd love to welcome missus, Deborah Joy Wine us to the show. Deborah Joy. Deborah Joy, how you doing not Deborah? I love it, Deborah Joy projecting, I love it. Hi, how are you all? We're doing fantastic good. I'm very happy to be here. Thank you for having me. Oh yeah, it's lovely to have you here. When we talk about comeback Stories and the adversity that people have faced in their orn along the way, we felt like we always had to go back to the childhood to you know, get some answers and to see where everything started. And so could you paint a picture of what growing up was like, where it was, what your family situation was, what was going on in your head. Just take us through it, Okay. Growing up, I am from Detroit, Michigan, born and raised into a very very big family. So family is truly all I've ever known. Grew up in church, love the Lord. That is truly my foundation. We were probably in church more than we were in school. It's just it was it made me really who I am today. But grew up in church, and I was always with my family, my brothers, my aunts, my uncles, all of my family sang. And when I was getting ready to graduate from high school, I knew that singing was not something I loved. I wanted to act. And when I told my family, they were like, oh, okay, well what else do you want to do because they had never seen me do it. But for some reason, it was just it was a passion, it was a dream. It was something that was just in my bones that I could not let go of. And so I went to Wayne State, which was also in Detroit with Wayne State University, and I majored in theater. And my family, particularly my brothers and my parents came to my first show at Wayne State and they were like, Okay, this is what you do. But for a lot of my family. That just wasn't the entertainment business as far as acting and the things that you could see on screen and the things that people would do that wasn't truly something that people of faith would do. But for me, that was what I felt God had put in my heart, in my spirit, in my soul, and so I just followed the dream that I fully believe God gave me, even though there were a lot of doubts in my family, and not doubts that I could do it, but doubts that I should do it, doubts that it was what God had for me. But I believe that God gives you the vision for your life and others will catch on eventually, and if they don't, they don't. But it's all good. You are following what God has given you. But it was very, very difficult. A lot of times I would look at my family and think, maybe they're right, maybe I'm in the wrong place. Is God gonna bless this? Can he bless this? Does He really know my heart? Does He know that I love him? Just wondering that if a life of faith and the dreams that I had could coexist. So that was sort of my journey growing up, and I'm a big family girl, a big family girl. Like if my family was singing somewhere, I was the number one fan. I was the person screaming like I had never heard them sing before. I was the person dancing in the aisle. I was the person cheering when you needed to be quiet. And that is the person that I still am today. I was always going to champion everybody in my family because I believed in them, and so I found it difficult when I got to a place of really focusing in on the thing that I really felt like God had given me to do, and I didn't see all of them cheering in the background for me. But that was that was my life growing up. I know that takes a lot of courage to to step into at some point because I remember me as a kid. I knew I had, you know, gifts and callings in music and in other areas, but I knew I was I was really good at sports as well, and that's what you know, people kind of know me for now. But I didn't have the courage to be different. I was so afraid of not being seen as normal or not being able to fit in and just be loved and accepted that. I was like, I'm just gonna do what everybody else says. It's cool what everybody else says is is, and that's a little different than your journey. But just as far as talking to the getting to the place of courage and stepping out and saying, hey, this is my journey and being comfortable in your own skin. I didn't feel comfortable in my own skin until probably twenty seven years old and having to go through a lot, God having to take me through a lot. So to see that courage that you must up, like how how is that possible? Like how do you? How do you arrive there? For somebody like is it they have to go through their own journey to get there? Absolutely think I think it's I think it's going through your own journey. But I think it's really love you. I have found that it is very difficult to move forward towards your destiny, your dreams, your goals when you don't fully love you, and I mean love every piece of you, the piece of you that you think, oh, I need to change that. That's not good because we all have flaws, we all have things that as we grow we're like, oh, maybe that's not the best character trait. But if we don't see it and recognize it and love ourselves, it is hard to make a change. And so I think the thing that I would tell people to find the courage means to find the love of you. And I think when you love you and you love who God has created you to be, as you grow and as you journey in this life, you'll see the things that Ah, Okay, I think I want to change that. And that's fine. Okay, you know this, this was okay for now. But you know, I think I'm moving higher. I think God is taking me somewhere different. I think I'm growing in a different way, and I want to let that go. I want to shed that. That's been the biggest thing that has helped me, and that has been It's come in phases, you know what I mean. I didn't just like, oh, I'm still going to go to school for theater and it's going to be fine. I didn't feel that way at all. I did it, but I did not feel like I was courageous at all. I just was like, I think I'm by myself, but I did my BFA. I'm the first person in the Wining's family to get a bachelor's degree. So I got my BFA. I spent a month in Moscow at the Moscow Art Theater School, and then I moved to La got my MFA in acting from cal Arts. I just kept going, kept going because I felt like if this was the gift that I knew God gave me, I just wanted to make it sharp. I wanted to make it great. I wanted to be excellent. So all of that is part of the journey of loving yourself. I found that I am doing the thing that I know, I love, that God has given me to do. So I think that I fell in love with that piece of me, the hard work, the discipline piece of me. And then as things started to pick up, and you know, things were happening and I was doing the very thing that I love, I still got different things from people close to me that I deemed mentors, people that I would go to and talk to about everything in life, Upset that I was doing what I was doing, Upset sort of at my career trajectory and at the choices that I had made. And so it wasn't until about maybe I just turned forty, So it wasn't until maybe thirty like thirty five, I started feeling it. I was like, you know what, it's fine. I have my husband, I'm good, I know what God has given me, and I'm going to courageously walk into this new life, this journey. I am going to fully be me, no exceptions. I'm not feeling bad because someone else doesn't agree. But then, baby, when I was about to have my baby, I had just turned thirty eight, and I did this pregnancy reveal with essence, and I thought it was fabulous. And then someone very close to me didn't like that and told me that was not of God and all these things, and I thought, oh, that was the last bit of shedding that I needed. I am boldly standing in who I am. I want to tell you can't tell me nothing. I had a baby at a age where everyone says, this is what do they call it? It's they call it a certain type of pregnancy, a geriatric baby. They call you geriatric after like thirty three or something, and so they're already saying it's a geriatric pregnancy. They're already saying I had a I had a fibroid that was twenty two centimeters. So when I got pregnant, the doctor's initial response was, Oh, we should get rid of this, because there's no way this baby you'll be able to grow with this fibroid. We need to get rid of it start over. And I looked at my husband and he was like, well, is she going to be okay? And the doctor said, well, she'll be fine, but she'll probably be in the worst pain of her life. And I said, well, if it's pain, then we're gonna fight, We're gonna hold on. And was it painful, Yes, the worst pain of my life. Did I feel like I was living on eggshells because the doctor said, I don't know if you'll make it past eighteen weeks. Absolutely. I had to have a surgery in the middle of my pregnancy to make sure the baby didn't come too soon. And the doctor was like, get me to twenty eight weeks. And we prayed and we believed, and I was in a place where, for the first time in my life, I could not see the other side of the circumstances. I feel like in every other circumstance, whether it felt good or not, I just knew God was gonna give me to the other side. This was the first time where I was like I can't even see what the other side is. I don't know if I'm half this baby. I don't know what's happening to me, Like, I just don't know. And when we got to twenty eight weeks and we had a baby shower, I took a breath and I was like, God, you did this. And so once I had a baby, I was like, you can't tell me nothing. I'm not sure who you think you are, but I do know who God has created me to be. And so it took me levels. It took me moment by moment to walk through this journey and to find courage in each circumstance. So this has been a build up of courage. Wow, there's so much there going back to I was having breakfast today with a mutual friend of Darren and I is His name is David g. He's an amazing meditation teacher here out in California, and I was telling him who our guest was and he goes, you realize, you know, you're interviewing this is music royalty, you know, And he was just like breaking it down because he's just he's into all that and just really knows the details. And I kept thinking, like, how do you, And Darren kind of asked this question, but how do you find your own in a family of royalty like that, especially when you've got the royalty piece of it, You've got projection of people's interpretation of religious beliefs and what is the right or wrong thing to do. So yeah, I mean, I know you walked us through that, but I'm just thinking about how challenging that would be with the domestication process of just growing up and you know, people telling us we need to do certain things in order to be successful. Oh. Absolutely. I think I've learned from watching having a front row seat to sort of what this life in the entertainment industry has looked like for my family and what I've always kept in mind, even when sometimes it was some of them telling me, oh no, no, Joy, that's that's not it. They broke barriers at a time where the music that they started singing seemed secular to most Christians. A lot of people thought that their music was the devil's music because it just didn't sound like traditional gospel music. But they persevered. They kept going because they felt like it was what God had given them to do, and ultimately got used that to really break barriers, to set a standard, to create a foundation that we have lived on, that we have been grateful for, I think for generations to come. So for me, I keep that in mind. While they may not see it, I know that they recognize, Oh you guys just don't see it. You don't have the vision. And that's okay, we have it. You'll catch on eventually. So I think that I've kept that as something to sort of hold on to and go back to when I'm feeling like, oh joy, this doesn't look like everybody else, it doesn't have to for me. I never singing was never my passion, that was never my love. I have sense, you know, if I talk to kids or just have a conversation really with anyone who asks how did you get into the industry, or what do you like about the industry singing. While it has never been a passion of mine, it is a gift. And I tell people use every gift that God has given you, because you don't know when you will be called upon to use it. And truly that gift is not for you. It is meant for the world. It is meant to touch somebody somewhere somehow. And so my only thing is I wish I would have also given as much time and focus and practice and discipline to my singing. But all in all, this was just a step by step sort of situation, and people will either get on the bandwagon or they won't. But it is difficult feeling like the very people that see you don't really see you. But also look trust God. That is my biggest advice that I can give to anybody. Trust God. Trust that gut instinct that you have, because you don't want to look back and think I didn't do this when I wanted to do it because so and so said something? Who is so and so? Are you about to pay all my bills? Are you about to set me up for life? Are you about to you know, no, you're not doing any of those things. So recognizing someone's perspective and their ideas versus what God has given you and what you want to do, I think that's that's the key. He come back to trusting God, and I'm the same way. I don't know how I would have gotten through the things that I've survived and just able to hold up the weight that I have on me today without him. And I feel like I love for you to dive into how you developed like an authentic love for the Lord, because I feel like even with me growing up, I was, you know, I want to My family was you know, always in church, but church felt like a chore and it felt like an obligation. And my religion was almost transactional with God, like if I if I read the Bible, if I went to you know, Bible study or midweek church, that God owed me a blessing. But and then when things got rough in my life, I didn't really I felt like God was judging me and condemning me as opposed to having that real relationship. So how how does one go about developing a love of the Lord and a loving relationship with him? You know, That's a really good question. And I think for me it was the foundation that my family set, and I think that you don't always have to agree on everything to recognize the good in something. And I think it was the six Aim prayers that I did not want to go to, but our parents woke us up and made us go. Because while I don't remember just getting there and getting on my knees and praying real hard, I do remember being next to my grandma and hearing how she would pray. She talked to the Lord very matter of fact. It didn't have to be this big voice, it didn't have to be these incredible words. Her vocabulary didn't have to be through the roof. It was Lord, I love you, Lord, I thank you, Lord, I thank you for waking me up. I thank you for a mind to want to love you, to want to do right. Thank you for my family. And so I would hear the way she prayed, and I thought, oh, I can do that, that's not difficult. And then I would hear the way my grandfather, just the joy that he would have talking about the Lord and everything God had done for him, and then I would see it in my own life. So I went from hearing my parents pray, hearing my grandma pray, seeing my grandfather pray and testify to the things that God had done, things that he had seen, and then seeing God in my life pray for certain things and then they happen, and I'm like, ooh, okay, this is okay, all right. But then I think the biggest thing for me was holding on to it when adversity came, when it felt like I wasn't enough, when it felt like everything I did just didn't add up, and like, God, where are you? I don't understand. I think my faith and my love increased circumstance by circumstance as I saw God through it all. You know, it's easy to praise Him when everything is wonderful. It is very difficult to still say thank you Lord when you're in the middle of a storm, when you are in the middle of not being able to see your way out. And I think I've learned that even through that. Like I spoke about being, I was working on set when well, I found out I was pregnant. Then I had to go and do a job. So I was working on a set without my husband, newly pregnant, in an immense amount of pain, and I literally said, I don't know where God is. What did I do to be in this wilderness? Like, I don't understand? And then I started to change my perspective and I was like, Okay, if I feel like I'm in a wilderness, Lord, what are you trying to show me? Have I not been depending on you enough? I am very happy to say that I married Well. When I tell you I love my husband, it is the best yes I've ever said in my life second to loving Jesus, I'm so very grateful he has shown me how to love myself the way I need to. So, you know, choosing a spouse is a really choose right because they can lead you into your destiny. And so I think for me, I started to see I've started to trust the gift more than the giver. I started leaning so much on my husband that I forgot about my relationship with the Lord and everything. For me, everything is flowing from him. And so I think for me, I started finding lessons in the wilderness. It's like, I don't want to be here. I don't know why I'm here, But you know what, let's figure that out so that I don't have to come here again. And so I think my love has to just continue to develop from stage to stage. But it's simple. It's loving the Lord and learning how much he loves me and trusting that even in the hard times. Darren, I got to say, Man, I'm loving how you've really made yourself at home in the big city. I'm curious, how are you getting around? You a subway guy, cab uber. I'm glad you're asked, Donnie, Man, I'm a got the honor to partner with All American Forward over in New Jersey. They've been taking really good care of me since I got out here, and that's why I love the most about it. Man, they treat me like I'm family, not just a customer trying to get a deal or just a statistic. You know. They give me great service. You could tell they got to commitment to quality. The innovation is unmatched. And just so if anybody's you know, like me, trying to get around in New Jersey, don't know where to go, I'm telling you go check out All American Forward here in Jersey. They gon'n take real good care of you. When we come back, you'll hear more of this inspiring comeback story. It's beautiful. I wanted to tie back your faith with I love how you dove right into loving yourself in the beginning. And just for some context, that's been a theme of mine for the last probably ten years with my brand, and I have a retreat every year in January. I do in so Doana call love Yourself. And the reason why I've been so passionate about this message is because no matter where I go and teach or speak or do some type of event. There's a common theme that we don't love ourselves enough. Whether it's the way that we have that not enough story hijacking our life, or it's the way we critique our body, or when we must make a mistake or fail in some way, or or feeling inadequate, or it's when we're putting everybody else's needs before our own needs. That is the common theme. It's like everywhere I go. And so I've been so passionate about this message because I've seen the damage that it's done, not only to myself but to the people that I'm exposed to. So how do you feel like for you, how does the security of knowing that you are fully loved by God? How does that help you with your own self love and not allowing that not enough story to creep in, Especially in the industry that you're in, which I would have to imagine there's a lot of there's a lot of rejection. Ooh, there's a lot of rejection. That's a really, really, really good question, Donnie. I think that when you fully know, so if we're saying God loves us unconditionally, and that's been a big thing for me because I think a lot of times people put God in things that God is like, I ain't got none to do with that play. God is love, And if you don't have love, then I really truly don't know what you have. And so when you recognize that love is who God is and that he loves you unconditionally right now as you are, with all the flaws, you see, God loves you. When I recognize that, I think there was something that really just sort of switched in me. If the creator of this universe loves me unconditionally the way that I am, who are you to tell me that I'm not great? Who are you to tell me that I can't do this? And then even to yourself when you start thinking, which I have so much being in this industry, Oh they wanted the light skinned girl. Oh they said dark skin isn't pretty enough. Oh I'm not thin enough. Oh I'm not. There's so many you're not You're not. I've had to tell myself and people don't realize how powerful language is. The tongue is very powerful, and you have to speak life to yourself. So I've had to change my atmosphere. I've had to change what people are sort of downloading into me, Oh, they said you're not. Oh okay, well I am. They just didn't they wanted something different, you know what I mean. So I've had to have my daily sort of affirmations. You are beautiful, you are smart, you are intelligent, You are where you're meant to be. A lot of times we look at other people's journeys and we think I should be there. No, no, no, you don't know what they've gone through to get there. You don't know what their journey has been. Like your journey is for you stay in your lane, and I think that that has been what has helped me. Does that make sense? Yeah? I think it's no matter what you choose to believe in. I think it's so important. Darren and I have talked about this, how faith relieves us from the burden of excessive responsibility. But it's also having that relationship and understanding that God is love, and if God is love and we are one with God, then we are loved and we are love. And if we truly know that and we have that faith, and anything that comes up in our lives, whether it's a relationship, a job, an opportunity, if not this something better, if not this something better, like that. That affirmation has always stayed with me, that true knowing that it's all happening for us and if this relationship isn't gonna work, there's gonna be something better. And that's really just like, help me a lot not be so attached to something that I think needs to be in my life. And yeah, God is usually moving it out of there to make space for something new. But we get hooked and attached and afraid that we're going to lose something and never find it again. We do and it's difficult. It is. It is very, very difficult. So I don't say it as like all you gotta do is you know, know that God is love and you're going to be great. No, it is very difficult. This is a daily thing for me. This is thank you Lord. I'm grateful for the journey that you've had me on. I am. And I think that as you get older, you're able you know, hindsight is twenty twenty. You are able to look back and be like, whoo, I see why I had to go through this, this, this, and this, I see and you see the character that has been developed in you and how God has groomed you to be who you're supposed to be for where you're going. You know. I think that if I would have gotten everything I asked for at like twenty two, I honestly don't know where I would be. I don't think I would have my husband. I don't think I would have my son. I don't know that I would have this career. I don't know where I would be. So God knows what we can handle and also what I love. Oprah Winfrey once said, love is in the details. And God dreams bigger dreams for you than you can dream for yourself. So while you've got all these big dreams, God is dreaming bigger. So if this doesn't work, trust that God's dream for you is working and you're getting there. Man, I gotta put another layer on that, because one of the greatest books I've ever read is by a pastor. It's called The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, And in the book he talks about how love and hurry are incompatible because love, love takes time, you know, and God being love, it may it may take time for whatever your season is, whatever your journey is in you know, especially like whatever is for your purpose to be fulfilled. And I love to know, like, what has the journey been for you, Like when it comes to cultivating purpose, because you have tremendous gifts in multiple fields and maximizing those takes a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of resources. But how have you found purpose within all that? Dang, that's good. That's a good question, you know. I think one time I was just randomly singing. I'll just sing a song, not even really thinking about it. It just will happen. And one time someone I was working with on set just said, ooh, that just touched my soul. And I said, oh, huh, you're so silly, and she said, I'm very serious. I don't know what it is about your voice, but it goes right to my soul. It just got my like joy you need to And I went to my trophy and I thought that was just some random him that popped up. I wasn't trying to do anything fancy with it. It just sort of came from me. And I realized that God touches everything, and so when you sort of relinquish your control on things and you just trust that what it is you want to do and you start flowing from that, God is using that to touch so many people in so many different ways that you would never think of. And so I think for me, I've moved gradually in that way of just resting, assured that God is in it, if I'm moving with the right motivation, if I am recognizing that life is a journey, God is in all of it. God is in every relationship you're making. We're so we're so in a hurry to get to the thing that we think is the penultimate thing when we and we missed the in betweens. I just turned forty and I could not believe the amount of people that were at my birthday party. When I walked out, I was in tears because I saw so many faces and they knew every face, and to think that they were all part of my journey, and I would if I would have hurried and rushed through the journey, I wouldn't have some of these relationships and have shared so many moments with this person that said, oh my God, if it wasn't for you checking in on me, I just don't know what I would have done or prayed with this person when they felt like they had nobody that understood that prayer could work. When you rush through life, you missed the moments that God is trying to use. And when you have those moments, you can have a party and look out and see God in all of it. See every relationship, see whether it's work, whether it's friendship, whether it was romantic. You see God over your life when you don't rush through it. And I think for me, that has been my thing to just sort of move from a place of love and trust that even if I don't see it, if I don't recognize the gift, if I don't think it means anything, to know that maybe God is using it somewhere, somehow for somebody. And so I think it's like you said, it's not a hurry. You got to live this thing. You have to feel all of it, the good and the bad. And when you recognize that you have to feel the good and the bad. I tend to trust that God is in all of it and He's gonna bring me through it. And so then you can look back and you can see his hand in every single thing. The circumstances that you thought were not necessary for your growth. You look back and you're like, oh, but I made this friend. Oh and I made this friend this has been a lifelong relationship. I've poured into them, They've poured into me. Where would I be if I didn't have this. That's my idea of it, just taking the journey and being happy with the journey, not trying to rush any peace of it. And when you don't rush it, you see God in all of it. I want to just take us back even to what you were saying about you singing and the person on set that heard you singing. And for me, I always say that God speaks to me through the mouths of other people. That's where I hear God the most. And as you were walking us through that that scenario, it was like she was hearing God through your voice. You were hearing God through her voice as a reminder of this gift that you have. And then it brought me to kind of Darren and I talk a lot about the four Agreements and being impeccable with your word and how your word. You know, there's two two sides to the sword, and that your word can neither, you know, send love and light, or it can cut through like a like a sharp knife. And yeah, that was just a beautiful scenario. And I believe like if getting to the rushing that we talked about, like life only unfolds in moments. It's it's moment to moment, and if we're not present for those moments, we end up missing out on what's most valuable in our lives. And you know, I've heard you say like we're constantly looking for ways to prove, you know, that that that were good enough, instead of just fully understanding like we are enough. Right, We're trying to prove instead of recognized. And I think that's like the power of the pause and taking time to be still. So I'm just curious for you, like what are your mindfulness practices. Do you have rituals, practices, mantras that you do to really center yourself and get present. Well, I think I love I love the power of the pause. That was really really great, And I think for me it's a reminder sort of daily. Like I said, I have my my affirmations that I know I need to speak to myself. I have affirmation that I speak over my home, that I speak about my marriage, that I speak over my son, because I do believe that we also can speak things into existence. There is life in what you say, So watch what you say so yeah, for me, it's prayer. It's not only just telling myself who I know I am, because you really you need to know who you are before you walk into anybody's room, because they're going to tell you who you are if you don't. So knowing who I am, trusting who I am, trusting what God has given me to do, walking boldly in that, and then also I get blessed from telling other people that they're great. I think I recognized a long time ago, while this industry is very difficult, I am not in competition. I think there's room for everybody. Whatever dreams and goals God has given you, there is room for everybody to fulfill their destiny. And so I've never felt like I'm in competition with anybody. So it's very easy for me to see someone and say, oh my god, you look beautiful. Oh that's stunning. We could be going in for the same audition, Oh my god, you look great, gone girl. Or just speaking life into other people is a blessing to me, and you never know what that can do for them. You never know where they're head space is at. You don't know where they are mentally, you don't know what they've just been through. You know, they barely made it through that door. And so knowing that the small things you can do a smile, a handshake, a hug, you look wonderful or welcome or how are you a genuine how are you can change somebody's life. So those are also practices that I have put into motion that really truly blessed me. You know, it's it's easiest to bless yourself when you're blessing others. It's better to give than receive. I mean, I remember, I remember the first time somebody, uh, I'm a Donnie and I have been in a twelve step recovery and in meetings, I remember an old timer saying, you know, if you want a friend, be a friend, and you know, getting yourself out of this place of like me receiving before I give first. And it's like, if I'm following, if I'm following God, if I'm in relationship with God, then my character and how I lived my life should be in alignment with Him, in alignment with with what how he would act, and and what you said about like comparing yourself to other people, It's like that's like the number one thief of joy. I mean, if you're you log you log onto social media at any point in time, your your joy could be stolen from you if you allow it to. So it's it's so important, especially nowadays too. I think you spoke on it earlier, just like protecting like what you're consuming and what you're taking in, Like you really have to be locked in on that because the world today is going to have you spinning like a top and just like you're love in a many different directions, have you thinking you crazy, you know, And it's and it's amazing to me how social media can really have somebody in a frenzy, y'all. Almost ninety nine point nine percent of this stuff is you know, airbrushed, touched up all the like. This is not people post the things that make them happy. You do not typically post the things that are hurting you, that are breaking you down, that you don't see a way out of. And when we recognize that, we don't let it consume us. You know, social media can be used as a tool, but if you are not ready to use it like that and understand it and truly love yourself, I think it is very difficult. I think it is very very difficult. It feels like a thief comeing to take every piece of joy that you have. And that's one thing that I tell myself too, Donnie, a reminder the world didn't give it to me, so the world can't take it away. Like this joy that I have, the world did not give it to me. So that's like that, as you may, the whole idea of conditional happiness. And I think that's why most of our world, or much of our world is struggling so bad, because of the idea of like, I'll be happy when I get this, or when I get the likes, or when I get the car or the marriage. And it's like, no, you have to figure out that happiness happens in the now. Happiness is an inside job. And yeah, you know what makes me happy. And I heard you say like a lot of the when you were referencing the social media where a lot of people are posting what makes them happy. And it's always a good reminder to me because I think my life changed forever when I actually shared my shit and shared my mess and I found like I feel like I found my voice. It humanized me as a teacher. It's also how I connected with Darren him hearing his short story, and I've heard you say that if you're not showing who you are, how are others gonna actually see the way? And when you and I heard that, I was like, Wow, this is exactly why we are sitting here in this moment, the three of us having this conversation. And my teacher would always say, how dare we not? And I get it, like in Darren and NIC's program, it's known to be anonymous, but I think I just had to choose impact over anonymity. And again those words for my teacher, how dare I not share my story when there's opportunities to help so many other people, not by how great my life is now, but how bad it was. Yeah, and then that willingness to just surrender and lay it all down and actually get honest and ask for some help. Yeah, That's that's what it's about. That's where change happens. That's I remember. I went through so many things when I got pregnant, and I'm just like, is this normal? Well? How come nobody nobody told me about this? Why didn't someone tell me that this could happen? Or this is what you go through? Like a lot of times, the stories that I heard women made it sound like pregnancy was all roses, and ah, this is delightful, and oh my child, Oh they're just amazing. My child started kicking and I was like, oh my goodness, this is this the earthquake happening. There were just so many things that I did not know to expect that are typical, and then understanding after I found out I had the fibroids, finding out how common it is in women of color, and then I start asking around and it's like, oh, oh yeah, I had that. Oh yeah, you know, you got to get checked for those because a lot of times doctors won't check you for it, and so you have to ask them to check. I'm like, wait, what, why didn't I know this? I wish I would have known. And that's what led me to share my pregnancy journey with Essence, because I want somebody to know. I know there are women coming behind me that want to get pregnant. If you're a woman of color, ask your doctor to check you for this, because had I been checked, I would have had a way better pregnancy because I would have gotten and removed. But you just don't know unless people are talking, unless people are sharing what they've been through, and I want to to share it so that people understood, No, this has not been Roses. This is something you can do to advocate for yourself. This is something you need to do, and it's okay. Don't feel shamed. Don't feel like because a lot of women I talked to felt shame. They didn't really want to share because it's not normal. Well, honey, it kind of sort of is. But also who cares. If you've been through this, you can help somebody else. Somebody else doesn't have to go through the same thing you went through. That's what I think about. From my son, I'm enduring certain things so that he doesn't have to, you know what I mean. So we have to share. We have to be honest because honesty brings about change. That's I mean, like you said, we feel you, Donnie, and I for sure, because I mean, I'm somebody that's I had no plans on being vocal about my journey with Droy's alcohol and all things that I've been through, but I feel like that's where my purpose has come from, and now it's about you know, somebody's life can be different, somebody's experience can be different because of my vulnerability because of what I'm willing to share. I'm willing to get up here and show you my scars. And it's like, you know, because they're no longer open wounds, they're they're healed now. They're still there, but they're there for a reason. You know what I'm saying. We salute you, We respect you for being vulnerable, showing the path so many women, whether it's pregnancy, whether it's you know, stepping out into their gifts and their calling that they know is true to themselves, dealing with any rejection along the way, even dealing with the success and how traumatizing success can be at times. Your vulnerability has been amazing. I'm walking away from this conversation lit up and just honor to have shared this time and this platform with you. So we're grateful, Thank you, Thank you so much, Darren. This has really been a pleasure. I appreciate it. I don't take it for granted anytime I'm able to talk and share anything, because I think that these are the moments that God gives us to be a light to someone, to share something that could touch and change. And so thank you, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Darren and Donnie, thank you so much. Yeah, I'm wondering if you can leave us with you know, I love the fact that we're having a lot of God talk on here, but I'm curious if somebody listening would be like, jeez, that's a lot of talk about God. If they're if they're if they're feeling, if they're feeling that resistance. But what what kind of advice? What could you, like, leave us with or leave that person that's maybe had of that experience or has some trauma around it, or isn't as open minded. What would you say to that person that just is struggling to find faith in their life. Life is hard, Life is hard, hard, And I understand the moments where you're not sure if there is a God, if there is a higher power, because why would I ever find myself in such a circumstance, Or if there is simply hurt from having gone to a church or a place of faith in worship and been rejected or told you're not good enough, or told uh, that's not what someone godly looks like or acts like or dresses like. I would say, keep going. I would say trust that you're here for a reason, and that there is a greater purpose beyond you, and you will find it. You don't have to have found it because I found it right now, or because Darren found it, or because Donnie found it. You will find it when you're supposed to find it. But trust that you are on your right path even though it's difficult, and that you are loved. I think when you lean into knowing you are loved, you find God. So I would just tell them you are loved. Life is going to life, and there can be people out there acting like, oh no, I'm good, I'm blessed. God is good. Yes, God is good, Yes, I am blessed. Also, life has been lifing and it has been very difficult, and I have found myself on my knees. I have found myself crying. I have found myself feeling like I am alone. I just have to get to the other side and know that I'm not and trust that I am fully loved even in the midst of it all. So I would just say, just take it step by step, moment by moment, choosing to know that you are loved, and when you feel that, you'll find God. None else needs to be said out of that. Thank you I could listen to your voice all day long. It's just soothing, it's fluid, your I just keep thinking about the grace and fluidity of your words, and I just feeling coming coming from your heart. But we know it's coming from something greater than that. So thank you for channeling God spirit and sharing the love with us and our listeners today. We appreciate you. I appreciate you. Thank you so much for having me. All right, everybody peace, We're Comeback. Stories is a production of Inflection Network and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.