Steven Pressfield's Comeback Story Part 2

00:00:00 Speaker 1: Before we dive into this week's episode, be sure to follow leave a review like Comeback Stories, hit that subscribe button so you don't miss any episodes. If there was anything Donnie and I could ask of you guys, it will be to give us a five star review in a written review. Our mission has always been to reach as many people as possible to remind that they're not alone and that we all have a comeback story within us. And we feel like you guys can definitely help us push that message further by helping us in this way. So we appreciate you guys more than you'll ever know all the times you've supported us from the beginning of the show to this point. So thank you, and let's drop in deep to this week's show. All right, welcome back everyone, We are here for another episode of Comeback Stories. I'm here with my main man, Darren Waller. D wall Good to see your face, yes, sir man, always good to see you. So we're back for round two with Stephen Pressfield. If you haven't listened into the first episode, I highly recommend tapping into that one first before diving into this one. But Stephen has written over twenty books. His first book didn't come out till he was fifty five. He's written bestsellers such as the Legend of Bagger Vance, The War of Art, Do the Work, and so many more. Stephen Pressfield, welcome back to Round two. Thanks Donny, Thanks Dared's great to be back with you, guys. I wanted to dive right back into pulling out some of the readings from your book The War of Art, and the very first words in that book talk about how the most of us have two lives, the life we live and the unlived life within us. Between the two stands resistance. Can you talk just a little bit more about why those were your first words and maybe break that down a little bit deeper. Well, I'm definitely a believer, Donnie, that there's that we all have a calling. We're born with a calling and born with a destiny. We're born with an identity. We're not just blank slates, and that identity, that calling is usually the unlived part of our life. We usually we live out what our parents wanted us to do, what society wants us to do. We go to school, we get a job, we do blah blah. We sort of sleepwalk into a life. Right But a lot of times, there is an unlived thing going on inside us, a positive thing, a dream, something that's that's our real self. And you might ask yourself, well, why don't we just do that? You know, well, first of all, it's kind of hard to know what that is. But secondly, there is this this invisible force, that the negative force that I call resistance with a capital R. That is our own self sabotage. It's it's purpose is to stop us from finding out who we really are and stop us from living our dream. And for me as a writer, nobody ever talking about this force. Now, I never heard about it, you know, it wasn't in books, it wasn't anything. But I could feel it, you know, when I sat down to work, you know, and I could feel it radiating off this little thing right here. And so what stops us from living out that unlived life, that dream that we have is this force of self sabotage that I call resistance with a capital R. And that's really what the War of Art was about and is about. Well, you had me in those first lines because for myself personally and Darren and I speak of this often, is that this unlived life that I feel like so many people are living in right now. And both Darren and I had been given the gift of desperation from our addiction, which ultimately streamlined us into a more purpose driven life. In that the addiction and the shame and the guilt and all the bad decisions that we made, really identifying at the root of everything was selfishness and self centeredness, understanding that the antidote to that was service or is service. So I'm so grateful. I always talk about my past and all even the struggles and the pain that I put people through in my own addiction, but how that rocketed me into such a different life. Or I feel like my life, my definition of success would have been money, material things, and it's so much more than that now and it's because it's because of my past and then being a coach and helping other people find their purpose. There's this gap. It's the life we're living in, this unlived life. And so yeah, that one just right from the get go. You had me, man, let me ask you something. Let me ask you, Danny, how do you help people find their purpose? So's there's some deep inquiry and questions, but I think it starts with figuring out what are your natural gifts and talents? Identifying what are your gifts? What are your natural gifts, What are the things that come easy to you? What are the things that people ask you for help with. What are those things that when you do them, it's like time stops and nothing else matters and so and then it's also figuring out what breaks your heart, like what are those things that just break your heart? For me personally, what breaks my heart more than anything in the world are the friends and families that get left behind when one of their loved ones dies from the disease of addiction, alcoholism, or mental health. That is the one thing, because I think about what it would have been like for my mom or my dad to have to wake up every single day knowing they lost their son and the aftermath that comes with them at So it's this is why Darren and I are on this platform, this is why we're talking about this all the time to carry this message. So yeah, for me, it's it's it's really figuring out what are your gifts, what matters most to you, what breaks your heart more than anything, and then figuring out how do we use those gifts to be of service and share it with the world. You know, you know, I would answer, I would agree with that, but I would add another thing. If we think about, um, what resistance means, I would say, also, what are you most afraid of? What is the thing that if if if we could say to you, okay, you're going to you're going to live this out, what thing would that be that would scare the shit out of you the most? You know? And that's because a lot of times I think, you know, like Joseph Campbell had this thing of follow your bliss right, which makes it sound like, you know, just find the wonderful thing that you love and do it. But I think he left out or the the the idea that when you do have that gift, you're going to have tremendous resistance. Like we were talking about self doubt the last time on episode one, I think that was where we kind of left off. You're going to the law of resistance says that when you pursue that dream, you're going to be terrified. You'll be you know, you will be terrified to do that, and you'll be racked with self doubt and distraction and stuff like that. So I would I would add that too, to somebody, you know, looking for a calling, if somebody asked me as a writer, I mean sort I sort of knew that that was what I needed to do, but I also knew that I was just absolutely scared to death to do it, and it took me years and years even to sit down and hit the first stroke with a you know, of a keyboard. That's a very interesting layer to add to purpose because a lot of the times, if we're doing something, we're involved in something and it doesn't scare us to a degree or make us question something, then a lot of times were comfortable. And I know, at least for me, my best work or my best product doesn't come with me being in my comfort zone. So there has to be an element of fear. There's a difference between like a paralyzing fear and something that's just keeping me stuck from taking action. But I realize now as I look at some of the fears that I have and I faced, what the resistance looks like in my life today, it's almost necessary for me to rise to another level, or to rise to the occasion that is necessary for me to fulfill my purpose. So that's that's very interesting because I've never thought of that way. Would you say, Darren, it like in terms of fear, that it's something you have to defeat every day. Absolutely. I would never say that there's a day that I wake up where there isn't some level of fear or some level of worry or doubt that I have to bring myself back centered from. That's just that's just what goes on inside of me. I know there may be people with different realities, but as far as me, that's what's authentic to me. I mean, that's my reality too, exactly. You know, it's like the old thing of you have to slay the dragon anew every morning. You know, it doesn't it doesn't go away, and if it does go away, I think something's wrongs better, you know. Regroup. I'm really glad you have added that layer of what scares you because what comes up for me and hearing that is it's just more public speaking like I've I've spoken on some smaller stages, but also knowing that this is the evolution for me, especially if my mission, our mission is to reach as many people as possible and carry this message, that kind of is the next step. And although I've done it and I've I've taught yoga classes in Bryant Park in New York City with over like three thousand people there. But teaching yoga is completely different than standing on a stage I can channel and teaching yoga where it's not me speaking, it's it's coming. It's coming through me as a vessel. But speaking on a stage, even though it might seem the same too many, it's still different. So that's kind of for me. Um, that's been my work and my work this this year. My word of the year has been action, and so taking action on those things and leaning into that is um is what's coming up as you ask that question? M Yeah, I think it's for me at least, it's it's moving into from the known to the unknown. That's sort of the fear, you know. Like for me, my fear is like when I sit down each day to write something, I've always wondered, what the fuck am I going to direct today? Or what what's happening today? You know? And uh, And the reason that it's scary, I think is because it's it's the unknown. I mean, in sports, it's like, what are you going to do today? Right? Are you gonna you know, have a good game? Are you gonna have a bad game? You know? Are you gonna what's gonna happen when it's out on the field. But that's um. That seems to be the nature of life, you know, I mean, and I wouldn't even say it's only human life. I would think if if you're a wolf or a hawk or something like that, they must have that same feeling. Do you know, am I going to make a kill today? Am I going to be able to feed the family today? I think it just seems to be the nature of life in the material world, which I never knew for years and years, and that wreck, that realization was really a turning point for me that this is just the way it is. You know, you gotta get up every day and slug it out. How is you a relationship with death and the idea of death? I'm just curious, with all this work you've done in Resistance, what does that look like for you today? Ah, It's a great question, because actually the book that I'm working on right now is about that. It's a novel, it's a historical fiction, and you know, it's certainly in a way I think like life is kind of a series of letting go of certain things right as you as you age, right as you get a little bit older. You know, you can't run as fast as you used to run. Um, you can't jump as high as you used to jump. You can't think as fast as you can't you know, don't even get into the area of sex, you know. Um, but you have to sort of make your peace with letting go of certain things. And I think the the the ultimate letting go is on your deathbed, you know, of being able to at least in my opinion, of not of getting to the point where you where you don't you're not desperately clinging to this thing you know called life and where and that's where some form of belief or trus or faith or whatever you want to call it, I think comes in and you know, just like jumping out of an airplane or you know, floating off into space. That's kind that's kind of my thought. I'm not ready to have it happened today, but I'm hoping that when it does come that I won't be too much of a pussy about it. No offense anybody. I believe in that perspective, Donnie is one of the things that from our conversations and our friendship. That's one thing that's stuck with me and that I thought about a lot is death and like seeing it from a reverse perspective of you know, when I am on that bed, how will I have wanted to go out? You know what, what is the level of character or integrity that I would have wanted to sustain by that time? And flip it in reverse and live that way because I really have no control over when I go or when that time maybe, but I do have control over moments a moment living that is to the standard and the calling that is placed all my life as somebody that really makes a difference. And you know, some people may hear this and think that they don't really make a difference. But it's not necessarily about the magnitude of the difference. It's more so about what you do in your own sphere of influence, whether it just be your family or your children or the people in your coldest act. Like, it's really just making a difference there and doing that day in and day out to the best of your ability. And when your time comes, and when your death comes, it's like, I don't think I could have done anything else more. There may be some little things you're like, ah, man, I wish I could have seen this or check that out. But in the grand scheme of things, of giving your all into your purpose and really find out all those layers that we just discussed in living in that way that allow you to just take a deep breath and be like, I think I did everything I could while I was here. Yeah, Donnynny, what made you? What made you ask that question? A good question and it just it just came up for me because I think I talk about this topic a lot, and I see people in my own life that I know aren't truly living. They haven't lived. Maybe they haven't cleaned up their lives their side of the street, made amends forgiving, maybe haven't lived the life that they knew they were called to live. And I can tell that they're scared to die because they haven't lived. And then and then I hear the contrast in the words of Darren, where I hear a man of faith, a man of um that's been on the other side, but is actually living his life and contributing, And with that I think can come a lot a lot more acceptance as to somebody that maybe hasn't lived or is just trying to control something they can't control. Because fear can either frees us or fuel us. And if we can use the fear of dying in a healthy way, then it can it can teach us to live. I always do this little little retreat exer size with everybody in the beginning while. I'll have somebody look at another person and say I'm going to die, You're gonna die. All that we have is this moment and it brings you, It drops you into the present moment right away, just just simply saying those words to each other. Hmm, yeah, that's great. Huh. You know there's a thing that I kind of believes became a friend of mine told me this one time, and he said that people will tell you that that life is short, but really life is long, and we're all gonna live. You know, if you're like thirty three years old right now and you're going to live to, say eighty nine, that's a lot of years. You know. That's like three careers if you're in the Marine Corps something like that. And I think that we need to sort of have a have a an attitude, not like of all, I'm going to go out and party my brains out now because I've only got another very short time to live, but really to really ask ourselves what are we here for? What is our calling? What? You know, like when you're saying, Donnie, people haven't lived a lot of times someone might interpret that as well, let's go out and have fun. Let's go out and we're surfing all day long, we're partying, whatever it is. But I think it's more about finding your calling, finding your vocation, and then living that out. You know, like Norman Mailer, the famous novelist, when he was towards the end of his life, He's being interviewed and a reporter asked him, do you have any regrets? And I know the reporter, I know, was thinking that he was going to say, you know, I wish I had appreciated the sunset more, or I wish I had spent more time with my kids. But instead he said, you know, I've got three or four more books in me that I wanted to write, and I really wish I had had the time. I had the time to do that. So in other words, I'm just trying to kick that living your life over a little bit more into your calling and your vocation and whatever. You know, that unlived life that we were talking about at the very start. To me, that's what when I think about death, that's kind of the whip over my head. That makes me say, you know, I got to get cracking on that and not leave anything on the table when when the time comes. And it's interesting to me how people can choose once they realize like, okay, like I'm going to die, or they realize the temporary nature of life in the grand scheme of things, and some people go to partying and using and drinking, and you know, it's it's what you know, Donnie and I have done too. There are a lot of terrible times in it, but also we thought a certain time we were having the time of our life and having a great time. And it's like, what if the unlived life that people have inside of them is has to do with them thinking that the only real life they have to live is that partying and there there's just an overall just level of ignorance, not like in a bad, arrogant way, but just not knowing that there's so much more deeper. And that's why I just look at those people with compassion, because you know, that's just the best image of fulfillment or joy that they have to give themselves and that they have in their mind every single day they go about it. And you know, I felt that's why it's important to us through having this conversation here today, is to get people to maybe not necessarily wake up in a sense, but just a question like why am I doing things the way that I'm doing? Then why am I going in this direction? Like is there something more? And as long as you can ask yourself that that question, then their odds are you're going to find something that is more. So well said, I was just thinking about, as you guys are having those conversations around death, why I feel like I'm so passionate about mindfulness and yoga because ultimately it's about living a more present life. And if we're really worried about how much time or limited time we have here on earth, and we want to be here for it, which means we need to be present. And I think so many people are sleepwalking through their lives or they're going at warp speed trying to check off the next item on the to do list, and you know, it's basically being hijacked by this whether it's not enough story or feeling like I need to do the next thing to feel a certain way. And so the best thing that we could do for ourselves is figuring out the practices that allow us to be present so we can truly cherish each moment that we have, each conversation that we have, And like Darren said, it brings a lot of compassion up for me for those that are living such a distracted life, and especially our younger generation and our youth to have grown up with technology and grown up with phones, and it's like, I don't know what's going to happen with that, but it gives me perfect It breaks my heart, but it also gives me purpose to know that there's a lot of work to be done. Then there's a whole other weird thing, you know, speaking of time, that when you are doing whatever that calling thing is for yourself, that time sort of stands still. You know. It's like when we were kids and we were playing outside. You know, we'd you know, the whole day would go. We didn't even know where it went, you know, we're just you know, I guess that's what mindfulness is. I guess I don't know, but but being you know, being so immersed in whatever it is that you're doing, which of course you gotta love otherwise you won't be immersed in it. Then sort of time goes away in some crazy way. I don't even know what the answer to that is or what it even means, but it is true, you know. It's like that's another answer. Like when you're finding your purpose, that's another good question. What is the thing that you do that you don't notice the passage of time that you wake up and oh my god, I was there for four hours out of that? You know, That's that's another good sort of check mark. I would think on that, other than writing, what are what are what are the things that make time stop for you? Other than when you're immersed in your writing. One of the things is a crazy answer. But this golf. You know, I don't play very much golf, so I don't get a chance to. But I sort of grew up in the game. And that's a thing where, you know, I just they say that one of the great things about golf, and I'm sure it's too about a lot of sports, is that while you're playing it, you can't think of anything else. You know, you really can't worry about any of the bullishit in your life. And then there's certain people that you love and just hanging out with them is another moment where you know time just doesn't count, you know. Um, I would say those those two things. You know? For me, what about you guys? Oh man? Flow state? For me is uh making music number one? Ah more than football? Yeah, making beats, um, creating songs. Yeah, it's not all I think that people really know, uh to be a fact about me, but um, that that's my That's my favorite thing to do. It's not just a tool to kind of be cool or be seen or be seen or expan my brand. Like that's just it's something I would do if I never released another song, if I never people never knew who I was, if nothing came from it. Um, it's something that I love to do, and I will. I don't. I don't take one look at the clock, uh when I'm really in that flow, you know, Darren, that's another great going back at Johnnie, what you what? We're going to ask you a question about how do you help people find their purpose? Another great question in there is what would you do if you were never going to get paid for it? You know, what would you do for free? And that's you know, I think when you answer that, you've answered something for real, you know. I feel like and when you can answer that question, I feel like it prevents resistance taking the form as success, maybe because I feel like we look at resistance and we see fear of self sabotage, self doubt. But I also feel like at a certain point, at least I've seen it a lot in a lot of different fields of success being a resistance at a certain point because you've achieved a certain amount or you've done a certain amount of things, and that may end up keeping you in a place of complacency or like there's nothing else to be done. And I feel like with that question that pushes you through that because ultimately there is really no finish line. There is no endpoint or a destination to arrive to Liken Me and Donnie always say the journey is a destination. So I feel like that, like you, like you just said, Steven, that that question can propel you a long way. Yeah. Any other aspect of that, Darren, is the aspect of what would you do for free? Is the idea that whatever that activity is, you're not doing it for an end goal. You're doing it for itself, you know, for the thing itself, in which case going back to yoga, Donny, it becomes a practice, right And that's really how I feel at this stage of my career about writing, that it's a practice for me. You know, it's something that that I do every day like somebody would do yoga or martial arts or whatever. And not that I'm not trying my absolute best. I am, but this, this satisfaction is independent of the outcome. You know, if a book I write doesn't do well or nobody knows it's even there, that's hard, but that's not going to stop me. I'm going on to the next one and the next one after that because I'm doing it for the sake of itself, you know, for the game. It chelf for love of the game. So to answer my own question, because I've now had the opportunity to hear your answers first, I have a few of them. One of them is teaching teaching yoga. There's nothing in life where time flies more than when I teach a yoga class. And again, to be it is the one area of my life where I feel so confident. I'm not thinking about what I'm saying. Like I said, it is channeling, it is not me. It is the coolest thing to be able to get out of my own way and actually just let the words come and flow through me. So teaching yoga, I just let a retreat into loom and being able to curate these these experiences, but then be able to sit back and just watch and witness the transformations and these new connections that I know will be lifelong connections. So to not only witness meaningful connections, but also to have meaningful conversations like this one we're having right now, to me, it's everything. It makes it really really hard these days to have a surface level conversation. I like cringe and have to I feel like I want to run for the hills when it's a surface level conversation. So my other answer would just be be this right here, these meaningful conversations where we're talking about the things that matter most. You know, it's so weird that, like you read the newspapers or you watch the news, and with all the conflict and polarization it's going on, you think that people are just at each other's throats and it's all about you know, antagonism. But if you think about just the three of us here, or Donnaya the yoga thing, or any of us that we do, so much of our lives are really about helping other people and interacting with it and being helped. And like, I feel like of my intention in the world is to be kind other people and to help other people and to give something other And I feel like most people are like that, just about everybody I know. It's like that. It makes me wonder where's all this negative stuff coming from? Is it only on the news, because when you're with real people in real time, you know, I don't see that stuff. I just see good stuff. Yeah, I believe that. I believe it. I believe good lies and everybody. It may be buried down beneath some certain things, beneath some desires or some thoughts, or you know, some pain that's built up inside of people, but I feel like, deep down, when you strip all that away and just have a conversation with somebody and get to know their heart and find common ground with them and help them not feel alone, I feel like everybody is capable of that kindness and being able to, you know, connect with somebody as opposed to finding what's wrong with somebody or a reason to be distant or opposed to somebody. Let me ask you, guys, from the recovery perspective, do you find that you are more compassionate now than you were in a previous incarnation? Did was compassion part of a change when you, guys, you know, got off the road you were on? In a way, I could say compassion was the change because I see now having a relationship with God and realizing that the moment that I decided to lean on and surrender to God, my life changed for the better. It allowed me to see other people and be like, no matter what they may be doing, no matter how much of an asshole that person is, no matter how much hate they have in their heart, if God gets hands on them, they have the ability to change tenfold. And I fully believe that because it happened to me. So when I see somebody living in a manner that may be not be who they truly are or their truest potential, that compassion kicks in because that was me. I see me when I look at them, if I see me, and if I look at them and I get agitated, it's a mirror because it's reflecting back to me and who I was, and it may be a moment where I forgot where I was because my life is so good today, but I often need that reminder by seeing people that may be in a state that I was one. I feel like the gift of once again, the desperation that Darren and I both had at our rock bottoms forced us. You know, literally, I'm on my knees asking God, please tell me what I need to do to get it right. This time, I needed that gift of desperation that rocketed me into this journey of personal development that started with my first therapy session ever in rehab and then diving into the Twelve Steps, which the twelve steps there for everybody. I mean, I know they're geared towards addiction, and you know, codependency has its own twelve steps alanon, but everybody could use those twelve steps. It's not about not drinking or getting high. It's about being free. And the beautiful part about doing our own work is that when we work on ourselves, we start to see the world through a different lens. And so when we see that you know, asshole at the grocery store, that's, you know, being mean to the grocery clerk. We can actually see through the eyes of compassion and understand that hurt people hurt people, and that if that person who's being so mean to a stranger is probably being ten times as mean to themselves, because it's just a projection outward. So I think understanding that and just understanding all of my old character defects and why I did the things that I did, it was because I was hurting, And so it's just that whole idea of like pain is part of the shared human experience, and even though my pain looks different than yours, Darren and I specifically have a responsibility to transmute that pain into a greater purpose and not inflicted onto others. And if we do mess up and inflicted onto others, we have a tool that allows us to go make an amends and make it right. And we make that amends not for the other person, but for ourselves so that we can be free and that we don't fall back into old negative thoughts and self sabotage. Now, I'm going to ask both of you guys, and I'm going to answer this myself first, what was that pain? Yeah? What you know, what was it was it? You know, I'll say it for myself, so I want to hear what you guys say is for me. It goes back to what you first said, Donnie about the unlived life. You know, my pain was that I was not I didn't have the guts to live out that unlived life, which for me was facing the blank page and trying to teach myself to be a writer because I was afraid of it or whatever whatever. But that that was my pain, even though I couldn't have really put my finger on it in a moment, if you back me against the wall and slap me around, I still couldn't have put my finger on it. But but on some level I knew that was true. But that was that was my pain. But let mean, what was your What was the pain that was driving you guys? Let me ask both of you. I believe that one of the origins of my pain was when I was younger, I'll be constantly told that I wasn't black enough by people that were my skin color growing up and really put me in it put me into this state of always having to please people, or always being hyper aware of what other people thought about me, and in turn, it made me almost like a slave to what other people thought of me. And so the pain ultimately became like discussed with myself because I didn't necessarily have the courage or now looking back, the tools to break free from what other people thought of me, and that people pleasing nature. I just I knew I was a slave to it, and I thought so poorly of myself that I couldn't break away from it. So it was I was constantly in that place of feeling shame from uh, not living up to people's standards and at the same time looking in the mirror and seeing who I was. Um, those two kind of combined and just were hit me with body blows. M wow, that's interesting, huh Donnie, what was what was yours? Yeah? So for me, it was the loss of identity of baseball athlete that being stripped away, stripped away from me through a traumatic injury was the was the that's basically the catalyst of what started my addiction. As I had a massive surgery, got over prescribed painkillers. Um, I had a doctor that pretty much screwed me over, and so there was these resentments building. I was the victim. My parents didn't understand my friends. You know, they're they're screwing me over, just like full victim mode. And it wasn't until I got into rehab and under so that it wasn't the actual physical pain and when I stopped blaming everybody else and I took personal responsibility and ownership for my part in my life. It was actually the loss of purpose, a loss of identity, the loss of my love, the love of my life. Where I got all my validation and approval was through performance in sports, and so for that to be taken away from me, where would I get it? Then? So it created just this so as the loss of the purpose, it was the emotional pain of that loss that I was numbing out, not the actual physical pain of from the trauma of the of the surgeon. Uh huh interesting, huh. Thanks for Yeah, I feel like I'm interviewing you guys. But thanks a great question. Being honest, that's really great. This is the way that we like to roll. I love these questions. Um, we like to keep it interactive and yeah, these are powerful. I wanted to ask you you had talked about the warrior virtues. I know you mentioned these and maybe we can break them down. I believe it's courage, patience, love for others, selflessness, and embracing adversity. Can you talk about where you where you pulled those from and how they've been meaningful in your life and maybe break them down a little bit. Okay, that's a good question. Um. The second book that I wrote was was called Gates of Fire, and it was about the three hundred Spartans the Battle of Thermopoli, and that sort of subject kind of came out of nowhere for me. It wasn't like I was a you know, a classical scholar who had been dying or tell a story or anything. But so in my imagination, I'm kind of immersing myself in in the in the warrior culture and what that meant, you know, particularly back in those days when warfare was shield to shield, so close to the other guy that if you're going to kill you, the other guy he's close enough to kill you. In the words, it's not like you're shooting from a mile away or something like that. And as I began to think about those warrior virtues of courage, selflessness, patients, the willing embracing of adversity, love for your comrades, and even love for the enemy. I began became clear to me that those were the same virtues that an artist needs, you know, a writer, a filmmaker, whatever it is, it's withinside your own head. You're going up against this enemy every day, the enemy being a blank page, and your own tendency to sabotage yourself. And I thought, I need these virtues myself. You know, these are the virtues, and they're also the virtues by the way of a mother or you know, if you think about the growing life within a pregnant woman or a woman with a with a small baby, you know, courage, selflessness, the brace of adversity, the giving yourself over to others, to the care of others, that kind of thing. So anyway, that's sort of how um I began to think of an artist's virtues or a writer's virtues, that they were really the same as a warrior's virtues. Which of those virtues would you say you're strongest that? That's a great question, And I would say, I don't know if I'm strongest that. But if you ask me what the most important one is, I would say selflessness in every in, in in both its meanings, in the sense of wanting to give to others, you know, like a warrior. The supreme act of a warrior, let's say, is throwing yourself on a hanger and so that you know, you save your buddy's life, right, or any other um act like that where you put yourself second and you put your your brothers and sisters first. But the other half of that is of selflessness is moving past the ego, obliterating the ego. Um Like Donnie, you were talking about when you teach a yoga class, how you feel like you're channeling something right, that words are coming through you. And I think, I mean as a writer, when you get into the groove or into a flow, and Darren, I'm sure this is the same. You know on the football field that when you're in a in a zone and things are just happening. I mean, how do you haul in a past when you're running as fast as you possibly can and you know some super athlete is trying to defend against you, and you do it. You know. I think what's happening then is our ego is we've found a way to get our ego out of the way and we just sort of surrender to the moment and and something comes through us, like you're saying, Donnie's voice comes through you, Like I mean, was it Jesus who said to the apostles, you know, don't be afraid if you don't know what to say, just open your mouth and I will speak it through you. I think that was something in the Bible. But it is a surrender to a higher something or other, you know, a mystery that we don't know. So I would say selflessness is kind of the supreme virtue both of a warrior and of an artist, and of anybody that's you know, of a mother again, the same thing, what is the supreme virtue of a mother is to give herself completely to the child and to her children, you know. And mothers all do that. They run into a burning building, you know, to save their child. Right. That's powerful, man, because I feel like a lot of men need to hear that. Like you said, you gave a great example of mothers in that, in that instinct to lay their life down or do whatever it takes for their child. But a lot of men, when we think of warriors, we think of like stepping on whoever to get to wherever we need to go. Being the king holding somebody's head up that you cut off, but really like to bring to attention the power of you know, love for others and selflessness and how that allows you to you know, be in that flow state, because you know, if you bring your resistance into the game into wherever the space is that you write into the yoga, into your yoga mat, you're you're bringing your own problems there. You're becoming your own enemy in a sense. Whereas you know, when you naturally get into that place where you flow, like you said, when I if I'm in a game and I'm and I'm really just there and fully in the moment, I've let go of all the things that I bring to the table, whether it be I need a certain amount of stats, I need a certain amount of catches, I need these things to happen for me. No, it's more so about what I'm giving to this environment, what I'm giving to the people wearing the same color as me, what I'm doing to to best be of service. And a lot of men I feel like still need to grasp that fully because we feel like masculinity is shown and stepping on people and killing everything and hustling, hustling, grinding, whereas the ability to be patient, ability to be selfless really is the quality imer and men the most. And I feel like it's just just a powerful man. I love that angle, Stephen, How do you feel like you Well, I'd love to know how you deal with distractions today, and then maybe some tips and recommendations on helping others deal with distractions, since we pretty much live in a world that's addicted and afflicted to distraction. What are some tips for Darren and I and everybody else listening. Well, I've never been in one of your yoga classes, Donnie, but I would have imagined that what you say to people is something like, this floor that we're gonna be working on now is a sacred space. And when you step onto this floor and you unroll your mat, leave all your troubles at the door. You know, in fact, check your ego at the door. We're here to work on one thing and to surrender to one thing. And I don't know if that's what you say, but I imagine is what you say. And certainly in the martial arts practice or any other thing like that, that's what the sense they will say, right, And I just kind of feel the same thing you know when when when I go into my office, which I'm in right now, it's a sacred space and nothing is allowed in. I turn everything off. Um, there's no email, there's nothing coming in, and and I'm really you know, speaking of a higher power or whatever it is. I really believe that when we're when we if you're if you're a painter, if you're a dancer, if you're a writer, or if you're a yoga instructor, if you're an athlete, that it's the arena that you're on is inhabited by the gods, you know, and you are trying to serve them when when you're there, So check your ego at the door, check your troubles at the door, and just focus entirely on what you're doing. So I just fortunately i grew up long before the era of social media, so I'm not addicted to that. You know, it's very easy for me to turn off you know, my phone and Instagram. You know, I don't care about that. But you absolutely, I think have to be just like you in the yoga class, if somebody came in and interrupted, you know, you would kick them out in two seconds, right, and everybody would be with you they'd all jump on them and throw them into the ocean. You know, we're not here to be distracted. You know, shut up, get the fuck out of here. You know, let us focus on what we're trying to do. You gotta be ruthless. I think you really have to be ruthless. I'm sure Vince Lombardi would not let anybody screw around on the practice field. And you know, and and and you shouldn't. I feel like that's amazing advice and I'm really resonating with it just from my own life and talking about how everything can be a ritual, everything can be sacred. And for me, I always talk about the morning. My morning routine is sacred, so there's nothing that can get in the way of Sometimes it's fifteen minutes max. But there are certain things that are non negotiables where I will not allow the phone or email or technology or anything to get in the way of that. And I think we can, we can. Everything we can do in our lives can be sacred, from vacuuming our floors to eating our eels, sitting down, playing with our children or our pets. But I think I teach this mindfulness thing, but I still find myself getting distracted, and although I'm aware of it, I'm also so aware of how many other people must be struggling with this. If I'm kind of a teacher of this, and yet still my world can get penetrated from technology or me thinking that something is actually more important than having a lone time with presence or God, or something is more important than centering myself or meditating. It's like any little chance that little self sabotage, that little voice will try to find its way in and try to tell me that something is actually more important than being present and having the mind and body in the same place at the same time. Yeah, that's a great word to use. Non negotiable. I mean, I've heard other people it's a great you know, that is what it is. Right, This is not up for discussion. You know, there's a hard boundary here and you just have to have it. I love what you said, Donnie about when you talked about I'm teaching this. I'm teaching mindfulness, but sometimes I still struggle, And I feel like that's super powerful because there's a lot of things that I may do in my daily life where I'm like, man, it's as much as I talk about this as much as I share about this, like I'm not doing it right every time, or I'm not you know, I may slip in moments, But it's more so, like we've been talking about this whole episode, like it's more of I'm just practicing. I'm continuing to practice, and as I advance in my practice, I have little gifts, little nuggets that I can give off, a little little bits of wisdom that I gain along the way. But by no means confuse that with the fact that I am perfect, or that I even need to be perfect in the first place, Like what's the what's the point of perfect? And but yeah, what you just said just spoke to me because I feel that same emotion too. But it's just more so continuing on this path with presence to it and like you said, making everything sacred and knowing that I define what is sacred, and from there I can pour into other people's lives because I see them as sacred, because I first see what I do and who I am as sacred. So I just want to say I relate to that big time. I don't think anybody relates to perfect, And I'm constantly reminded of that as my life completely changed when I actually shared the imperfections and the past and my messy past, Like everything changed for me the day that I shared my story in a yoga event that I did so in this world where I think so many people are chasing this image of perfection yet it's not relatable, but yet so many people are trying to portray this life of perfection. So I mean, man, I'm tripping over the stuff I'm teaching every single day. I'm aware of it, and I just think it's great to to share that. And it also, I think just makes me more relatable and humanizes me as maybe a teacher of this, knowing that I'm in the work with all of you every single day. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I've had the same thing too where I'm struggling in a book that I'm working on, and I say to myself, you know, you wrote about this in the War of Art and these other things. You better pick up that book and read it again, Zucker, you know, and pay attention to it because it's hard. It's hard to you know, you know, we're all struggling with it. I have a question for you, Stephen. I know, at least for me, I've had success in my line of work as an athlete, but it hasn't necessarily removed the resistance and the level of the way that I feel like it should. Um. I've seen as you've now, You've gone from no books, no titles until your fifties to now selling multiple millions of copies of books. Um. Has that changed the level of resistance that in your life today? No? And I'm glad to hear that you're the same way, Darren. No. I don't you know in my experience that that tendency to self sabotage never goes away, and it must be the same in recovery. Right, it's one day at a time, right, Um, that the devil is always there waiting, you know, to pull you down the rabbit hole, you know. So yeah, I do think. Uh No, resistance never gets any any easier for me, and I don't expect. I think it's just a fact of life, a law of life. Why why do you think universal or like resistance is so universal? Um? I forgot if we even talk. I have a whole kind of theory. But did we talk about the ego and the self the last time we were on our part one thing? I mean I talk about I have a hereabout. I have no idea if this is true or not. But people sometimes have asked me, where do you think this resistance comes from? You know, why does it even exist? You know? Why isn't life easy? Why do we always have to fight this thing? And I think that this is kind of a long you know, bear with me for a couple of minutes here, um, I think actually, right up the hill behind me, did you guys ever see a movie called Billy Jack starring Tom Laughlin? Does that ring a bell at all? Ah? A great great movie from a way, way way back. Anyway. Tom Laughlin was a kind of an actor and a superstar on his level, but he also was a used to live right behind me. That's why I'm pointing up the hill. And he also was a kind of a Youngian therapist and he used to kind of a renegade crazy guy. And one of the one of the things he used to do, I'm going to be a really long version here is people would come to him as a last resort, like when they had incurable cancer, you know, the last you know, right, They were desperate, and he would say to them, was there anything in your life that you an activity or a calling that you really loved, and particularly when you were young, and someone would say to him, like a woman that had cancer and was like seventy years old or something, she said to him, you know, when I was a kid, I loved the piano, and I for like fifteen years I wanted to be a concert pianist. And tom Laughlin would say to her, take up the piano again right now, you know, and do it full tilt. You know, get a great teacher, etc. Etc. Etc. And sure enough cancers would go into remission. So what he was thinking of, I know, I'm going a long way around Robin Hood's barn here. His kind of theory, he was that there are two aspects to our identity, our ego, the little small part of ourselves that's you know, that runs the show and has a rationality, and then the bigger part was the self with a capital s self and the self contained in terms of like that lady with a piano, he was trying to get her to reconnect with that deeper part of herself, the artistic part of herself, the part where flow existed, and the self also was lay adjacent in in tom Laughlin's definition, to what he called the divine ground, in other words, the higher power, whatever it is above ourselves, so far different from the ego. The ego was the opposite of that, always trying to grab a hold of steering wheel and run the show. So what I think resistance comes from is if we're living in that ego world and suddenly we receive some kind of a moment of enlightenment or a contact with something higher, and we decide that we're gon We're gonna shift our identity to the self, to the piano playing self, to the writing self, to the athletic self. The ego doesn't like that, because we're going to put the ego out of business if we make that move to the self. So I think that it's the ego that creates this resistance, and we'll try to sabotage us. You know, like if and even real people in our real lives, if we have like a group of friends or even our family that loved us, and we suddenly decide to make a change in a really positive way, right to go away from some negative behavior that we share with our family and friends, that we're going to go to something higher than that. You can watch our family and our friends try to sabotage us. Right, they will say to us, hey, what's the matter, man, You've changed. You're not the way you used to be. You know what do you think you're good for us anymore? We can't get stoned like we used to get. We can't go hang out, just be a regular guy. What are you trying to? You know? So, I think the resistance is the ego. The egos desperate, you know, wish to hang onto its own power and to not let us move to that higher level. So if we put it in terms of recovery or a twelve step, you know, the whole thing of of acknowledging a higher power is a huge part of that. Would not work without it. Program wouldn't work without it, right too. So anyway, that's kind of a long rambling way of I forgot even what the question was, Donnie, but I think that was. That's my answer. That's it's it's put it in perspective. And I love at the end how you talked about when you are on that path of recovery, or you're taking a path of spirituality or personal development, how you will get that projection from other people because when they see you on that path, they can often threaten because they know they're not living and it might be on a subconscious level, or they get threatened by your own freedom, and then ultimately they project it back onto you, which is why it's so important to never take anything personal, because it's not it's their ship they're putting back on you, exactly. Yeah. So, if you are going to take that path and you're you know, you're going to step into a different way of life, maybe different than the people around you, get ready for some projection and just understand that it's not personal. And even the people that are inspired by what you're doing and they're telling you how awesome you are, don't take that personally either. Just stay in your lane and trust the good work that you're doing. Yeah yeah, all right, close us out by answering the question, so, what would you tell somebody somebody that's struggling right now in some aspect of their life. They know they're struggling, but they don't know what to do about it. What would you tell that person? I would I would go back to what I said a little earlier, Donnie, and I would sort of ask that person, what is it that you're most afraid of what? What? What fear is there in the deepest part of your heart, you know? And but and I would sort of tie that fear, that fear is tied to a dream in the sense of what is the dream that, if you could make it come true, would be everything that you wanted? And it might be a very weird dream, you know, might necessarily you know when in America we're sold as bullshit about success and all that sort of stuff, but it might be something completely different. You know, if I could just be a model for other people, if I could somehow um ease the suffering of other people, that that kind of thing, and if that dream elicits tremendous fear, then start in that direction somehow take the first step. Because you're gonna be wrong at first. You're gonna take a wrong turn. You're gonna have to course correct, You're gonna have to go back. You know, You're gonna go through a number of jobs and and efforts to get there. But each one, I think we'll get closer and closer to it. What are you most afraid of and what is it that you that is your your dream, your deepest dream. Wow. On the other hand, let me say this, it's always a long haul. The hero's journey can take your whole life, and there really is no quick fix, you know, so buckle up. It's going to be a long Not everybody can be like Darren that it becomes a superstar, you know, at a very young age. But for most of us it takes a long, a long haul, so buckle up and be ready for that. Well, if you listen to this episode, I hope you had a pen and paper. I think you rattled off so many deep questions of inquiry, which I know I will go back and write all these questions and answer them and also ask all my coaching clients these questions because there's some deep, profound reflection that will really get you clear on maybe what's getting in the way and where you're wanting to go, and you know what's stopping you, slowing you down, and what matters most in your life. So thank you for bringing just so much value and wisdom, and thank you for your consistency and the work where you just keep hammering out book after book, and thank you for the time, you know, two hours spending it with Darren and I it's been an honor. Hey, thanks Danny. Thanks Darren, thanks for having me. This has been a lot of fun, great conversations. You can't say that we were on the surface this time, you know, we tried to go for you. No, thanks a lot to you guys. You have my great respect and and it's a lot, a ton of fun to do this. I'm happy to come back anytime. We'll do part three anytime. Thank you, man. I appreciate you, you know, just the way that's you right and the way that you show up in the world, and just through giving people ways to navigate resistance and just knowing that though our fear may may always be there, it may not go anywhere. You may always have to face it and fight it, but you give us tools and you give us hope to know that on the other side of that fight is something that we've always wanted. So just appreciate you in your perspective. Well, thanks to you guys too. You have my greatest respect, you know, and admiration. Keep up the great work. What's up, comeback stories, family, It's Donnie dropping in here. So did you know that Darren and E's relationships started by me being his personal development, mindfulness and mindset coach. I want to let you know about both my one on one coaching program, The Shift, and my group master Mind Elevate your Purpose. These coaching programs are specifically designed for people who are ready to take the next step in their purpose and level up their career, personal finances, and have more connected, deep and meaningful relationships. My gift and part of my purpose is to help others take that next step in leveling up their lives so that they can have a greater impact on the lives of others, create success that sustainable yet evolves and grows, and help build a legacy that will outlive your life. If this is calling you, just go to Donnie Starkins dot com and apply for either one of my programs.