Susan Borchardt's Comeback Story

00:00:10 Speaker 1: Welcome back, everyone to another episode to come back stories here with my man Donnie Starkins. As always, we have an amazing guest here today, one that I've been able to form a relationship and work with. We have Susan Borchart, performance enhancement specialist with the Athlete Blueprint. She's worked with a friend of the show, Kelsey Plum, Sue Bird, Brianna Stewart, Meghan Ripino, a lot of elite athletes. Has held performance roles with Stanford Women's basketball at Seattle Storm currently with US women's national team fresh off of gold medal. Had some time in the w NBA herself. But just an amazing woman, amazing coach that I've gotten to know so far. Susan, Welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Saron Gosh, what an introduction. Wow. Oh yeah, how to get it right? How to get it right? I'm impressed. But yeah, we like to start by asking how was growing up for you? What was your early life like? Well, I think my early growing up years are very kind of formed by my two younger brothers, so I kind of really wanted to be one of the crew a little bit, and my parents were amazing. It kind of being like, yeah, get right in there. And I wasn't treated any different than them, and so it was like everyone had chores, and my chores were no different than theirs, and I was mowing the lawn because that's you know, all those things were all treated equally and along those same lines. I was kind of thrown into their practices and just one of the guys. And I think that really kind of helped me. Just given the size that I ended up being, I'm really small. I'm like a peanut, you know, in the basketball world, and so I think that kind of gave me that fighter mentality a little bit. And I think that I kind of harnessed that and used that as I grew up and played. So that was kind of the basis of how I grew up. Got you. One thing Donnie and I have definitely learned, especially from our lives and some of the things that we've had to heal from, is we could always trace something back to like an early memory of pain, or an early memory that had us feeling maybe a little bit alienated or different than anybody else, or something that just changed the way that we process things and showed up in the world. Was there a moment early in your life that you can think back on that may have changed you in a way. Yeah, you know, I think gosh, like I said, I didn't necessarily look like the prototypical basketball player. I'm five six, I'm white, I'm small, and so I remember I was being recruited really early on, and I was playing on varsity early and I remember my coach being like, yeah, we had this whole group of coaches come in today and during warm ups they couldn't figure out which one you were. And I'm like, should I feel like I remember, like, God, I feel like I kind of feel bad about that, you know, But then I'm like, wait a second, no, like hold on, I'm gonna kind of prove them wrong a little bit. And so I think I've always kind of come from that standpoint a little bit, whether it was you know, proving them wrong in the sense of like, well, maybe the small but I'm gonna go out and do this, this and this. It was like I was kind of waiting or it helped me when someone said you can't do this and I'm like okay, but here we go. So that I think was kind of um, I always sort of had that mentality a little bit. But that was one of those moments right when we're like, God, that like doesn't make me feel great, So now I gotta go out there and like double down. I felt like so when I was getting recruited, I wasn't really recruited that highly. I had a few offers um, and I was just like there somewhere I was like, I'm just I had that mindset, I'm not really that good. I guess like I'm just kind of just you know, I might earn a scholarship, I might get school paid for. But then it kind of I kind of developed that mindset too, of like I gotta prove these things. I gotta do this, I gotta show them. It's like, did you did you ever feel any moments where that mindset was kind of exhausting? Because I'm sure it served you a lot. It got you too, into a lot of doors, into a lot of rooms, especially now, But did you ever feel like that was exhausting to you? Yeah? You know, I don't know that I ever looked at it that way. It was always Yeah, it was more like that was kind of the cross I had to bear, being the size, and so instead of looking at it as like I'm tired of doing that. It's like, okay, here we go one more time. And I think that actually really served me well with my injury history. And so I got to Stanford. Couldn't have been going better. I'm a freshman, I'm a point guard. I'm playing every minute of every game. It's you know, just going amazing. I go up for a layup, I get tackled ter my ACL and done. Okay that year. Then I rehab come back, same thing. I'd had a cadavergraphed it, stretched, my body didn't take it. I had to do something again. And I think that when the doctors were like, hey, you know, we just want to like set you up for understanding like this might not happen for you might not play again as room like okay, like all right, here we go. So I think that kind of helped me in that instance of having to kind of fight for all the things that I got up until that point. I think that that was useful for me. And then I think that's also something we like to pass along to the people that we work with, like we've been in their shoes and it's like Okay, there we go, let's dig in we're gonna get through this, and then on the other side, you're going to have so much confidence in yourself because look, you look what you've made it through. You know. So yeah, that was that was going to go into next What would you say, could you take us through like the parallel of your mental health journey as you went through and battled some injuries when you were in college and you know, maybe when your early WNBA career, Like what were some of the mental health challenges that may have gone alongside with those physical challenges. Yeah, you know, I'm a little bit older, so back in the day, that wasn't really something that was talked about at all. But for me my freshman year when I tore my sale my first time, it was really hard. Like I'm from Minnesota, I was in California. I'm really far away from my family. Basketball in my head was kind of what I was there for. So it was like wait a second, like I'm out here, Like it was a really big challenge. School was hard, you know, it's just a lot. And so the second time around, I think I was really lucky because I had actually met my husband in the training room. He was the center on the basketball team. And we met there, and so I think the second time around, I just had a lot more perspective and I had things outside of basketball that I cared about in a much stronger way. And so for me, the second time through was a lot healthier in that standpoint. And then I also was rehabbing at a different place. And so I think in that like in trying to find my way out of this back to playing, I sort of found my way in one of my really big mentors that to this day is someone that I lean on and from a professional standpoint and just from a personal standpoint as well. Donnie, I know you yeah, absolutely see the injuries. Well, the injuries. I had a had seven surgeries on my left knee, and the fifth one that I had was my senior playing baseball my senior year at Arizona State, and I had a cadaver transplant of my meniscus. It's a surgery that I know they don't do anymore. I was the first person in Arizona to ever have this surgery. The head orthopedic surgeon at ASU liked sold this to me really well and basically said, you have the knee of a ninety year old man. You're twenty one years old. You'll have to have your knee replaced in a couple of years. If you if this surgery works, it could be like having a new knee and you might even play again. And my body rejected the piece. The surgery was a disaster. The pain that I was in for a month. I was taking eighty percoset a week for a month straight, and then after had cut me off cold turkey. So it was, yeah, that was the beginning of my spiral of my bottom and my addiction. And you know, for the people listening, they've they've probably heard this story. But yeah, it was like the perfect storm, losing my identity, losing baseball, traumatic surgery, all of those pain killers that I was having to take. But really that wasn't why I got addicted. Ultimately, the wound, the core wound for me, was the loss of my identity and the loss of my purpose of baseball. For that to be stripped of me where that's where I got my validation and it was the love of my life. It was that almost killed me. It literally almost killed me. M Yeah, no, I feel that so strongly for sure. So I was like, how did you get out of my next I went to rehab about you know, six seven years later after just like being a lost soul and you know, never really being able to kick the pain killers. I mean, I did a lot of other drugs, but really what had its script on me were the pain killers. And it wasn't even about getting high. I was about feeling normal, where the weekend would end and Monday morning would roll around and I couldn't even step foot outside my door because I was in so much fear and anxiety. And so it was really just like kind of what a deep breath does for me today is what the pills would do for me back then. And so it just my life got so bad that I had to I ended up in rehab, and that's when I got really curious as to like what the hell happened to my life going from this baseball player star to a drug addict, Like where did it all go wrong? And that was the beginning of my journey into personal development and recovery. And yeah, it's been a wild ride since, but it's beautiful. It's just you know, the I was talking about this yesterday that my past today is my greatest asset, and I know it's similar for Darren. You know, many many think he makes an impact, you know, on the football field, but really it's it's his story and that's really why we're sitting here today. So kind of like in finding your way out, you sort of found your way and like you're able to pass that on the people. I love it. And it wasn't until I shared my story. And so I'm sitting there watching Hard Knocks one day and you know, I see this gentleman sharing his story and I'm like, oh my god, I did that on a way smaller platform. I've got to connect with this guy and then like immediately connected with him. So it's been beautiful. Wow, that's amazing. What a cool story. Yeah, I want to share cool It's a cool Yeah. I want to get into a meditation a little bit more and later on the conversation, because Donnie's big into meditation. Susan incorporates a lot of meditations into my plan, so we'll definitely get into that. Susan, what I want to ask you about. I know you played at Stanford, you had a short stint in the w NBA. I want to ask you what was the transition phase like from ending basketball and moving into like maybe the ambiguity and the anxiety of like what's next, Like what was that process like for you? Yeah, so mine was a little bit different. I had played that summer and then my husband was playing for the Celtics that next year and he got waived like halfway through. It was like this huge NBA trade and it wasn't like a great fit, and we kind of waited to see is he gonna go on a ten day or can we find a ten day that makes sense so that he would actually make, you know, instead of just being there for ten days. And so all the overseas teams kept calling and calling and calling. We were like, nah, we don't really want to do that. I don't know if that's right, and a venture like you know what, We're just gonna go for it. We're gonna try it and see it. And mostly because they only play one to two games a week over there, and my husband is at seven feet tall, he's broken his an inbicular bone. It's like this chronic thing that happens when to a lot of guys that are that big, and so one to two games a week is a lot better than five, you know, in the NBA, And so we got over there. He ended up playing for this great coach who was like, hey, you can do whatever you need to do during the week as long as you play like that on Saturday, Like, we don't care whatever you need to do, just play like that. And so that was kind of where it started, where it's like, okay, so then what would make the most sense. And it made sense for us to stay there, and then I kind of started doing his programming essentially, and that had always been something that I'd been interested in, obviously with all the rehab and such, and then I'm just from like a personal standpoint, being in really good shape with something that I kind of relied on to play like I wanted to play. And so we ended up wanting to stay in that city, but they didn't have a women's team, and so had we gone to we had offers from some of these other places where I would have played for the women, he would played for the men. It would have been great. Sorry with that, but in deciding to do that, the men's team there asked if I would work with their essentially their second pro team, which is college age kids, and so I was like, okay, yeah, that sounds good, and so I started there, and by the end of our time in Spain, I was working with Curtis's team doing essentially what I do now with the pros, and so that was a really cool experience and I ended up being one of the first females to work in that space there and just was in a really great environment and I loved it. And so my transition, I think was pretty smooth because I was still in it, I was still around basketball. But I've seen, you know, I've seen my husband go through it when he stopped playing. It's not easy, Like it's different than just a regular job. You kind of alluded to that, where it's who you are is wrapped up in what you do and how you feel about yourself, and so that was a really tough transition for him, and so I think that's something I'm really aware of too when I'm working with people. We had. I had someone really prominent this year retire and it was something she started talking about early, and we started talking about It's like, hey, that's coming, Like let's kind of proactively start thinking about that, talking to someone who specializes in that that when you get there, it's not this huge shock, it's like you've already started that process. So yeah, for me, it was smoother than I think it's been for other people, just by happenstance a little bit. And I'm still I'm lucky enough that I'm still kind of involved in this game that's been, you know, so huge to my life. So beautiful journey. I'm loving. I'm interested to get into the meditation. Just want to hear a little bit more about your story, though, What would you say just from We always like to kind of talk about bottoms rock bottoms, and I think everybody's bottom is different. Everybody has a low point. But if you look back on your life, what was that for you? Oh gosh, I think that's pretty easy for me to say that my freshman year at Stamford was just I'd never been hurt in my life. I'd only ever always played, and that that was just it for me, and so to not have that was really really hard. And I think as an athlete, Darn maybe you can or maybe both of you guys can kind of agree on this, like when you're at when you're on campus as an athlete, like there are certain things that you're just not involved in mostly because you just don't have time. Right, You're like you're at class, you're at practice, you're at something associated with your team, You're not in the art club and going to these speakers. Are all these really cool things that are on campus. You sort of that's sort of a trade. At least at Stanford. Most of the athletes talk about that. It's like there's a lot of cool stuff you don't experience. And so I never really saw into that, And looking back, I wish I would have kind of had my eyes open to all these other amazing things that were going on on campus. But I couldn't really see outside of that. It was like I was very tunnel minded here and I was like this, I'm missing this, I'm missing this piece instead of seeing what else it was. And so that for sure, for me was my bottom. What do you think We always talk about how it's not the event that happens, but the meaning we attached to it. But what what did you learn from that? What did you learn about yourself? And I think what was kind of the story you had to stop telling yourself to start to, like, right, you will comeback story? Yeah, you know, I think when I look back on the whole kind of like injury situation for myself. I think I might have even said this, but I think I learned that I am really tough and I had made it through all of that, and so whatever else comes my way. It's like I learned to believe in myself, and I guess I had to refine that first before I could expect anyone else to. I think the other thing that I learned, and we kind of talk about this now with our athletes, because we work with a lot of athletes who are kind of in that return to blazone. They come to us and it's like, okay, well, as soon as I'm back out there, it's like you're not necessarily going to feel exactly like yourself right as you return to play, and that's okay. You have to give yourself space to not be right back to that level where you were at. And for me that, you know, I say, my freshman year was hardest. I think rivaling that would probably be my junior year, where I was back and playing and just playing, you know, I was playing the whole game, and I just felt so compared to what I used to be and so like struggling through that, like trying to rEFInd how I played or maybe find the new normal of how I was going to be able to play a little bit. That was really hard too, But I didn't really know that I had to give myself space. I just thought like, well, as soon as I'm back out there, I'm gonna like be me right. No one wants to say, like, hey, there's going to be this adjustment period, and so I think that's something we really try and give the players are working with space to like walk into I know that, like, hey, you got to celebrate the fact that you're out there and be okay with knowing that it's not going to be like you just stepped off the floor a year ago when you before you got injured. You know, like that that's okay, Like let's celebrate being out there and win this day, not worry about comparing yourself to what you were before. I definitely hear lessons of self compassion in there, for sure. I'm gonna see I'm in a season of that as well. This season hasn't necessarily gone the way that I've liked it too, especially coming off of you know, twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, playing every single game and play it was like I was going to be the same way last season, except for a getting a free knee injury kind of getting rolled up. So it's I've had to grow and allow myself compassion, you know, because it's like as soon as I'm back off of i R in a week and I'm like, i gotta get be back out there and like ripping people's heads off, like singing, I'm back out there like I used to be. But it's like, you know, why don't you just celebrate the fact that you're able to stack three days in a row of running together. You're exactly you're able to work yourself back in and like not demand that you be superman immediately, but the fact that you're continuing to progress and grow, like that's good enough, and the version of you will that's supposed to show will show in the time that it's supposed to happen. So it's like, I think that's a very wise lesson to not just be so hard on yourself, because I'll bring the hammer out to beat myself over the head with negative thoughts like oh man, I should be doing this by now. Like Donnie talks about shooting ourselves to death. I don't know if you've ever heard that before. But that idea is it's a season and I'm currently walking through. So I speak of, you know, the lesson that I hear, but it's really something that I have to practice right now for myself. And it's hard, right. It's like sometimes too, it's like, wow, my knee feels great, Like why am I not? You know? Or like my hamstrength, you know, whatever it is. It's like now I feel great, But it's like, Okay, there's there's this piece of it too, and that piece is going to come when it has the opportunity to come. And so not rushing that I think is hard to do when you're in it, but I think it's an important thing to kind of try and remember and have perspective for. Yeah, without a doubt. How else do you help your athletes? You work with some of the best of the best, I mean, Darren rattled off that list. I mean it's I mean, top top tier. How do you help them fall in love with the process and even if some of that process is rehab or recovery, what are some of the tools techniques that you're passing along to them. Yeah, you know, I think every athlete we work with, we work with a little bit differently. We really like to kind of get in there and understand what makes them tick, what they're buying factor is like, what about this is appealing to them? The nice thing is they're sort of choosing us, so there's they have that skin in the game start, you know, and so there's like that buy in. It's like they've sought us out, So there's that. But then it's like, okay, what about this resonates with them? And then also what are kind of the parameters where they can see this work. We have some athletes where it's like they want everything scheduled. We have other athletes who we do more of the recovery piece for and we're kind of helping them come down after their full day of training with their teams. So it just kind of depends. Every athlete is different. But I think the main thing we really like to start with is that there's magic inconsistency, and so anybody you can get anybody do something for ten days and then it's like the shinyness wears off and that's like, Okay, let's move on to something else. But it's like when you really kind of commit to the process of it and decide that like Okay, I'm going to buy in for the journey of this and I'm not gonna try and I'm not going to try and do too much at the beginning, but I'm really going to allow things to kind of work synergistically together. That's when we feel like we really kind of can help make change happen. And so we've been lucky, you know it. Sometimes it just feels like a dream, truly. The people we have a chance to work with and just to be kind of on that journey with them has been, you know, just the greatest privilege. But we work with each of them differently, and it feels like different things make different people tick, and so that's like trying to get in there and understand that, I think is one of the things we try and do really well well. If there's anything that Donnie and I are known to riff about on this show and this platform is definitely meditation. So I would love to know how you got introduced to meditation yourself and when you have what the process would like starting to incorporate it with athletes. Was it resisted at first? Was it welcome to explain that for us? Yeah, So I would say the whole kind of journey of meditation is something that I am still fully learning and I love I love learning about it, like understanding it more fully. But it's one of those things that we kind of started incorporating and I would say probably two years ago, and it was not something that we're like, oh, this is you know, everyone, they're gonna love this. It was like, Okay, hey, we're going to try something new. And usually we have kind of some built in trust with people. When we're like, hey, we think this might be something that could work for you. Are you willing to give it a try, It's like, sure, I'll try it, you know. And so we started with it and it was something that we were just kind of blown away with the positive feedback we got from people. Are like, hey, I really love that. That like really helps me. And we have some people who get anxious when they fly, some people who are anxious when they're in a new place, some people who have a really hard time going to sleep after a game. And so, just like I said, we work with people differently. We kind of use this as a tool differently with people as well. So for some people it's you know, they really like to meditate in the morning to kind of clear their mind and set set their intention for the day. We use it that way. We use it with some people on game day several times. It just kind of depends how we're weaving it in. But far and away, the response has just been overwhelmingly positive. And I don't know that I've had anyone complained about this. Like, you know, we'll hear people like, oh my gosh, the peloton, why you know, there's we'll get that feedback of like they're complaining about they know it's good for them, But like, never have I heard complaints about this. And I think we've sort of started the process for some people and they've taken it further and so now they're like totally into it on a level that we're not even pushing them to. It's like they've kind of internalized it and made it part of their process in a way that's not me assigning it. It's them figuring out what works best for them. And so that's actually really cool. We love to see when people sort of take something we show them as a tool and sort of really make it their own and modify kind of how we're doing it. And then we incorporated in a way that they've found works even better for them. So what are some of the techniques or practices. I know it might vary from athlete to athlete, but what what do you maybe even your own practices and what your practices look like and some of the ones that you're passing along to your people. Yeah, so we have several people that we like to pull from. We like the box breathing, we like the some of the counted whole holding breathwork. We find that it really flows nicely with how we're using breathwork in our performance. So we're focusing and talking about breathing and exhaling and all of that within our lifts and such, and so it just kind of it becomes this nice segue and it's familiar to them. It's not something that's like, oh, meditation, It's like no, no, this is just a continuation, just a different way of using breath work. And so it seems like an easy kind of step into that arena. And so a lot of times we'll use it, I would say, in the evening, Darren, this will probably be familiar with you. This is how we like to use it with you in the evening. Sometimes we'll have legs up on the walls dark space and really just allow them to kind of downregulate. Sometimes it'll be half guided, half silent, but just kind of get into that parasympathetic state. Will use heat beforehand. Sometimes sometimes we'll have it be where they're finishing their workout with that and then get into some heat after that. We like to use it. We like heat in the evening just to kind of help with that process. So that's some of the ways using it. Sometimes we'll use it after shoot around in the morning where people are like they start to get really amped almost too soon, right, so they go to shoot around. It's like they're in that state and we know they're going to have to take their nap because the game is it until seven, So we'll use something that just kind of helps them recam after that. That's one of the ways we use it. And then I have a couple who love to just pop their headphones in and do it while they're traveling because they're anxious. So on the plane we'll pair that with some of the power dot stuff on their low back where we had that like sense of vibration and such with the meditation. But I'm, like I said, I'm always learning about it, And by no means that I'm like, oh, I know everything about it. It's like, no, We're constantly kind of trying to find new tools that we think would fit certain individuals we work with and such. So I'm guessing I might learn something today. I'm excited to listen to how you use it. Yeah, I'm just thinking about when I was playing in college and this was not available. Maybe it was available, but I know none of us, not to me. I don't know yet y'll get meditation, we're not available. And it's just such a game changer for so many reasons. And yes, the on the field stuff, but you know, even just some of the work I've done with there, and so much of it isn't even on the field stuff. It's all the other stuff. But it's that other stuff that, you know, being able to manage and regulate emotions and have tools to find find our center. Right. I believe that we all have a center, and I believe it sits right at the middle of the heart space. But we also get pulled off our center by the world's demand, from the attention of our minds. And you know, you have the biggest companies in the world creating, hiring the smartest people in the world to create these algorithms to capture our attention. Now that's just the normal, normal, everyday person. And then you talk about the athlete and then everything else that comes with that. It's like, it blows my mind. I have and maybe you can relate a completely different perspective on athletes where I truly have so much compassion for them, where you know, I think other people, many people will put them on a pedestal and think it's like all amazing, and I'm like it's a lot. And I get to hang out there and often and it's just the energy. It just feels like a lot. So it is so essential to have these practices, whatever they are, the meditation techniques, the breath techniques. We talk a lot about just pattern interrupts, like positive pattern interrupts, and finding these little tools that you can have in your back pocket to redirect your focus, because that's all it really is. If we can have these tools to redirect our focus, it's like where our attention goes, energy flows, right, So if our attentions on a flight and we get anxiety and we're worried about the plane crashing and we just keep thinking about that. It's like a whirlpool. It just keeps building and building. But if you can have these little positive, positive pattern errupts that redirect your focus, you know, it breaks that pattern. So, yeah, there's so many out there. I mean, the breath is the one that we always have, and we've always had since day one. Yeah. I think one of our athletes who does deal with anxiety, I think she put it in a really great or framed it. Well, It's like, Okay, when I do this, I feel like I'm controlling what I can control. All of a sudden, I'm in control of this. I'm able to kind of control what's happening here. Those two things work together for me, and so it's like this tool that allows me to feel in control even if at the moment I'm feeling out of control, I'm like starting to go to that place where I don't want to go. It's like, Okay, I have that in my back pocket. I always know how I can get back to that place. I close my eyes, I start there, there we go. And so I think that's a really powerful thing when you're someone who can be overcome by that. And so back to me is like an exaggerated example a little bit, but kind of the same thing. It's like, we have a lot of people who have a hard time coming down from that really heightened state from practice or a game or whatever it is. And so it's a really powerful thing, no doubt. I mean, I, like you said, control in the control balls is a powerful thing, something that we can just get distracted from knowing that that's all that we can control. And for me, it's like Donnie always says, this meditation creates the space, and it's like the space to make a choice, the space to come up with a response as opposed to just reacting hapatz or lead of things. I've talked with Kelsey about how you talk about athleticism is more than just what you do with your body, but it's more so like processing things with your mind. And I feel like meditation allows me to go out onto the field, to go into anything in my life and create space from to where I can respond the way that I want to. I can be calm when I come up with that response. I don't always have to be like supertenseed or like ready to just fire off or in whatever situation it is. Meditation gives me that opportunity to know, like I can take that breath, create that pause anywhere, whether it's on the field and in the midst of a play or in the midst of a conversation that could go to another level in emotions. You know. It's just like meditation. It's such a portable tool and something definitely enhanced my career and my life for sure. I love it. It's interesting. I think about when people maybe find out I'm a meditation teacher and I tell them in the instant responses, I can't meditate. My mind never stops thinking, and I'm like nobody does, and so so much of it is just giving your mind something to focus on. Right. It's like doing a rep with a free weight, and every time you're you know, if it's your breath or you're staring at a candle, or you have a word or a mantra, and every time you notice that it leaves, you bring it back. And when you notice it, it's not like, oh God, there goes my monkey mind again. No, you noticed it, And that's awareness. And so it's the and then the action step of bringing it back. And every time we do that, just like a rep with a free weight, our our mind is getting stronger, and if you struggle with that, just then think about meditation as just thinking about what you're thinking about, because then you're just because you know the status. We have sixty to seventy thousand thoughts a day, and ninety percent of those thoughts are the same thoughts we had yesterday, so we're basically thinking about the same thing, which, you know, our thoughts create our reality, but really our belief system creates our thoughts, which create our reality. But it's and that noticing that change can happen. It's all about awareness. I love it, you know. I have a question one of the other things we've been doing now, and Kelsey would laugh about this because we were just at a place and they brought up the same thing. But I'm really big on scent and essential oils and kind of connecting that a little bit to relaxation. Is that something that you've done in terms of like, Okay, before we meditate, we're going to put on we're gonna use lavender and eucalyptus and sort of associate that with kind of that parasympathetic down regulation. They're like all over my place, and I just think they're so because it's just another tool to get us into our senses. But also some of those senses bring up, like like the positive ones, they just get us into our bodies. It's another access point back into our bodies, so we can get all the senses involved. And then some of these powerful ones are very grounding or very healing or very heart opening. So oh yeah, I'm all about it. Yeah, it's like that's what my boy. Oh I relax when I smell those smells, Like that's what my bot. Okay, that's my queue to start. So it's just like that extra sort of assistance into that state, I think, or it can be. What would you say with like these these top tier athletes that you're working with from a mindset standpoint, what separates them? What is it exactly that separates like the greatest from the best or the average from a mental standpoint? Yeah, you know, I think the thing that we've noticed is the great ones are always looking for that one or two percent. So it's like that edge. So how am I going to maximize just a little bit more? Because when you're when you're the best of the best, the difference between you and the person below you is not this it's this, right, but how do we find those little pieces that makes sense and kind of resonate with them and are effective for them in that sense? And so um, they're the ones who are willing to buy in and do the daily not the like big grandiose things, but kind of the things that the unsexy things, you know, the things that like no one really wants to do their prehab Like Darren, I'm that's pretty sure. You're not like, oh, I can't wait to go into you know. It's like those things that daily add up. Those little things add up and they end up being things that make the big difference, right, And so the consistency of it, they're the ones who are willing to kind of buy in fully to that consistent sort of lifestyle. I guess in terms of the people we're working with, that's kind of the thing that we've ended up seeing. It's like they're never complacency, isn't there. It's like they're always like working for that next little best thing, right and willing to put in the effort to make to make that happen. Would you say all of these athletes have like have a meditation practice or are they all consistent in some type of like mindfulness or breathworker meditation practice. Yeah, so just like everyone's training plan isn't quite the same, I would say their meditation practice definitely follows along those lines. So for some people, it's something that they want to do three times and they can't wait to do it, and it's like very built in brothers. It's like, this is something that we're going to do at night that's kind of helps them more into like their sleep patterning are part of their sleep routine. It just kind of depends on what they found. But usually we'll start at night and then if we get read like they're like, oh I love that, then we'll figure out how we're going to weave it in. Or if we know that they're dealing with some of the anxiety on game days, it's just we're kind of in conversation with them and then we try things out, figure out how they like it, and then calibrate from there. But yeah, I would say everyone has some piece of that woven into what they're doing. I'm thinking right now, I'm drawing a conclusion Like Donnie and I, we have so much like joy and excitement for this platform, and it all stems from the days where things weren't that great, like our rock bottom moments, Like it all springs from the pain and those moments like that. So I'm thinking like with you back when you were like a freshman at Stanford and you were going through those times and go through those injuries and those thoughts that you were addling to the point you're in now, It's like, I feel like there's no higher human level of experience or energy than serving other people. Was that experience that you had at Stanford? Like one of the main reasons, Like has that become like a purpose for you to serve these people, to help these people grow, whether they're injured or whether it's trying to take us to the next level? Like does your inspiration or purpose come from that? Like talk to us about Yeah, I think so absolutely. It's like I've literally been in those shoes, and I know what it feels like to feel like I'm never like I don't know that I'm going to get back to that, Like can I get back to where I was? Like I don't know, right? And I think to be able to kind of not hold someone's hand, but be a part of someone's journey while they're going through that and just really truly be in it with them and have that trust between Like there's nothing more than that. We value more than that, you know, because when you're when you're at your rock bottom, you're pretty darned vulnerable, right, Like, if you're gonna let somebody in kind of accompany you on that path, like there's there's a lot we take a lot of responsibility and knowing that like, hey, they've really let us in. This is this is a big job, and we want to do our very best to kind of help them get back on the other side. And so to that point, you know, when you see somebody you've been there five days after surgery, they're on the bike and they're crying. So they don't think they're ever going to to then see them back on the court and just back out there doing what they love or winning gold medal or whatever it is. It's like, I don't know that it gets in my job. I don't know that it gets any better than that, no doubt, because it's it's easy as as human beings to feel like we're alone in our experiences. And you know, that's that's a big thing that drives me, is like I don't want people to feel like they're alone, like they can see me and things that I've done and I'm successful, but I came from the same place that they were in. I want them to know that they're still an option. There's still a way for them to overcome that. So it's like it's amazing to see that these athletes that no matter what stays they're in, they have somebody like you that's really been in the trench, has really been in those moments to to help them feel like, okay, like I'm understood, Like I'm okay here, like I can be where I'm at, and it's okay to be where I'm at, and it's all about where I'm going next. So all right, I appreciate you being an after people. Susan, thank you, Darren. Now, it has been really cool, and we kind of have been in this basketball niche a little bit. That's kind of or at least that's where we started, and we really have walked that walk, and I think one of the things that's a little bit different is we've walked the walk of living overseas two and it's on the men's side that's not quite as typical, but for most WNBA players that is a part of kind of their journey, at least the beginning portion, and so that's actually served us really well because we understand what it's like when you're over there and it's just a totally different world. And so to kind of get in there and be able to help them navigate that too has been a really cool thing. Do you talk a lot about gratitude with your athletes or do they have gratitude practices? We actually on Thanksgiving they've probably all laugh, but on Thanksgiving most people did some form of gratitude meditation. I'll put that after the most people didn't have practice on Thanksgiving, so they do some form of like a peloton or something like that, and then we finished with a gratitude meditation. I believe Kelsey did that day. So I do like to kind of weave that in. And I mean, truthfully, though, the people that we have the privilege of working with, they're doing so many amazing things in terms of giving back and being involved and you know, trying to help bring others or give up with others opportunity. That's just been a really big part of the w NBA in general of like, hey, I want to leave this better than it was for me because there's so much room to grow. So actually, truthfully, we've been so inspired by the people we get to work with. We just sit back and watch, like this is so amazing. We have four young kids, and to have them be able to witness all these just I mean truly best of best people were working with, but not athletes, but like people and see what they're doing and see how they're doing it and how they carry themselves. That's been I think one of the most valuable things for us as a family is just to have our kids exposed to that and see these people and you know, they they're sort of old enough now to get it, Like they understand now that like, wow, people love Kelsey like I love Kelsey plumba like everybody loves Kelsey Plumb you know, in that way. And it's it's been really cool. So we're hopeful that they'll continue to kind of get to see that. And we have two young girls and they're both going to be huge, and so it's really great that they're going to have all these like, really tall, positive role models around them, because unfortunately I can't give that to them. So um, it's been really neat awesome. Well, well, you appreciate you creating a time, Susan, though you are a very busy woman than you and I would love to meet you in person the next time we're in Vegas. That would be wonderful. If you're out there doing this, that would be great to grab coffee or something along those lines. That would be amazing. Let's do it. And Darren and I's teacher and friend David Ge who's I feel like, the legendary meditation teacher and he's he looks the part of like I hate to use the word guru because I just think it's a really strong word, but anybody in the meditation space, he's guy. And most importantly, yes he looks the part, and he has a big white beard and white hair. But he's so cool and his big thing has always been to make meditation accessible. And so like every meditation he'll he's all over inside Timer and on a few of the other apps, and he'll always say at the beginning, like settle in comfort is queen, So like to be comfortable, because I think sometimes people have this misconception of like meditation needs to be like sitting cross legged and having some moodra with your hands and it's like no, like, just make it accessible. And he's got some great guided meditations for your people. If for anybody that's listening that hasn't heard his back. We did two episodes with him because we went so deep, but he ten years ago made meditation accessible to me, so like every many people, the struggle is real when you try to start a meditation practice. And his storytelling capabilities and just how like easy he made it be through guided meditations is what got me into the practice. And now he's a friend of ours and I just did his five day meditation immersion a few weeks ago and it was like mind blowing, like, oh, very good, powerful, that would be really cool. Darren will send you some of this stuff. Do you have? Yeah, I'd love to see it. We have. We've definitely heard like I can't sit cross legged, and we did. We definitely have some people that cannot get into that position that it can't happening. I definitely can't exactly comfy, is right. Yeah, But thank you so much again. All Right, hope a great rest of your day. Appreciate your time, Thank you too. Okay, we'll chat soon, all right, bye? Yeah, Thank you so much. Thank you. What's up comeback stories, family, It's Donnie dropping in here. So did you know that Darren and E's relationships started by me being his personal development, mindfulness and mindset coach. I want to let you know about both my one on one coaching program to Shift and my group Mastermind Elevate your Purpose. These coaching programs are specifically designed for people who are ready to take the next step in their purpose and level up their career, personal finances, and have more connected, deep and meaningful relationships. My gift and part of my purpose is to help others take that next step in leveling up their lives so that they can have a greater impact on the lives of others, create success that sustainable yet evolves and grows, and help build a legacy that will outlive your life. If this is calling you, just go to Donnie Starkins dot com and apply for either one of my programs.